Helen Joyce - why gender medicine isn’t science…

[Justme56]

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/p/why-gender-medicine-isnt-science

“Actually that’s not quite right, because there isn’t any requirement to perform your gender, just to state it. Nothing further than the statement is required of the person making it: it’s other people who have to do the work by believing that statement — that is, by “affirming” that gender. The expression “gender self-identification” is a misnomer — it’s not something you have to do, beyond proclamation, it’s a demand that other people affirm you as being the gender you state yourself to be. Opening the door marked F or M is a way of declaring your gender identity.

There’s no place for other people’s judgment, indeed no role at all for other people except as supporting actors or appreciative audience. No room for them to say they don’t fancy joining in the performance, or to be a critic and say it’s not a very good performance. They’re not allowed to say: “OK, you say you’re a woman, that you’re living as a woman or have a female gender identity, but you don’t seem very female to me.”

Joyce has obviously never heard of the concept of respecting other people's choices regardless of whether you agree with them.

It never occurs to these people that they expect the very same respect they deny others for their biological essentialism beliefs.

Science, and medicine should be based on science, isn't about choice, it's about verifiable reality.

In your face societal behavioural sex distinctions kinda is verifiable reality…

And just how exactly is your loo 'verification' going?

Mate, just use the gents. Nobody is going to bother you.

Funnily enough I do think there are probably behavioral differences between the sexes but they are down to the "one egg a month versus gazillions of sperm at all times" dichotomy, so they are entirely down to sex not gender whatever gender is supposed to be.

In your face societal behavioural sex distinctions kinda is verifiable reality…

Are you possibly missing the point of the article?

We're looking for a logical link from whatever you're saying to administering puberty blockers and surgery under the guise of "gender medicine".

What are you trying to fix with your "medical" interventions?

Fix? That the mind like the body may have been hard wired for reproduction never occurs to the 'biology is real' peoples.

Gender expression just like our physical bodies has its evolutionary purposes where incongruity logically creates psychological conflict.

Gender expression just like our physical bodies has its evolutionary purposes where incongruity logically creates psychological conflict.

Don't you ever wonder why "gender expression" differs throughout cultures (and closely related cultures at that) if that is the case?

In what substantial way do masculine & feminine traits differ cross culturally?

Name 10 "masculine and feminine traits" and we'll examine them.

You don't leave your house very often do, you?
I've lived on three different continents and several countries at this point and there are significant differences in expected masculinity and femininity between these cultures which is why the only thing that matters is male and female, sex not gender.

Can you elaborate on those differences?

Shouldn’t people be able to criticise other people’s choices. Respect doesn’t mean never speaking up, especially if someone’s choice may affect them in a negative way. It seems rather authoritarian to suggest otherwise.

Why don't you answer Cher's question first?

Terrific writing, clear and insightful. An excellent analysis.

I think I’ve heard this before, but never so succinctly expressed:

Saying someone has gender dysphoria is like saying their humours are out of balance. That was the ancient Greek theory for what made people well or unwell, which lasted until the Middle Ages — the four humours were blood, phlegm, yellow bile and black bile. The treatments were things like bloodletting and purging: they were junk because the theory was junk. It’s the same with gender medicine. The treatments offered — puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, chest and genital surgeries and also things like voice training — are like bloodletting and purging. There isn’t any reason to think they would work.

Also Tooth Fairy Science, which I hadn’t heard of before.

Oh we will get to that.

Now you brought it up, so let's hear it.

No, you brought up gender expression, you explain what you mean with it.

Agreed. But my point was more that Joyce doesn't realise her stance is one of opinion not fact. Biological facts aren't just limited to the body.

But you agreed but claimed these differed culturally. In what way?

I asked first.

Once we have the 10 traits, it may be that Igneococcus will have examples relating to one or more of them.

You are the one who thinks gender expression is an evolutionary force. Tell us how.

Perhaps we could ignore the usual tiresome and repetitive attempts to distract from the original topic, and instead focus on what an insightful article that is from Helen Joyce. Looking forward to parts 2 and 3.

Ummm you do know the brain is part of your body don’t you??? Or do you keep yours in a jar on your shelf?

I’m sure some sexed behaviour is biologically driven by evolutionary forces. Why wouldn’t it be? Evolution stacks up incremental advantages and behaviour can be advantageous to survival of the individual and the species.

But it doesn’t follow that exhibiting the behaviour of the opposite sex makes you of that sex, any more than a woman being much taller than the average woman makes her a man. Neither does being of one sex preclude an individual from sometimes exhibiting behaviour more typical of the other, because context and personality matter.

Helen Joyce was speaking in Australia. Her words follow:

^I was fortunate enough to be invited to give one of the keynote speeches at the inaugural conference of the Gender Healthcare Summit organised by the Coalition Advancing Scientific Care, an Australian organisation seeking to bring evidence-based considerations to gender medicine, especially for minors. My talk was an hour long, so I’m going to share my speaking notes in three separate posts in the next few days. This is the first.^

The lack of a good evidence base for gender medicine is one of the most troubling things about the madness that has taken over so many in the last few years. It's hard to get your head round how the medical and allied professions have thrown themselves behind irreversible treatments that can reduce life expectancy and significantly harm quality of life for no good reason! People accept that treatment for cancer is going to be pretty horrible because they are convinced that it would be even worse to leave the cancer untreated. The equivalent in gender medicine appears to be 'yes, this isn't going to be a walk in the park - but if we don't do this the patient will kill her/himself!' Where's the evidence?