TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

It's not disagreeing with me that makes it transphobic, it's the fact that you are belittling and mocking gender dysphoria.

"Gender dysphoria is a result of transphobia, not what causes people to be trans" seems to be the line she's running with today.

Isn't it something we can all acknowledge, that some people are very distressed by the fact that they are not the opposite sex, ruminate on this obsessively, and try to alleviate this with medication and surgeries and such.

Sorry but I don't think it's helpful to dismiss this as "unspecified hurtyfeelz". Isn't the point more that, no matter how distressed some people are that they're not the opposite sex, it's no good reason to eradicate single-sex spaces across all of society.

Saying a trans woman is a man, using the common biological understanding of man, is not transphobic.

Those who claim it is are enacting a power grab to deligitimise the language women need to describe what this ideology actually means for women, avoiding genuine good faith debate and recognition of opposing needs and views by making it unsayable to express anything that contradicts the Genderist narrative in the first place.

Sorry but I don't think it's helpful to dismiss this as "unspecified hurtyfeelz".

Thank you.

are you reading the conversation that is happening on this thread right now?

Another good example is the trans identified male prisoner who variously called himself Tiffany Scott, Obi Wan Kenobi, or Mighty Almighty. Or Barbie Kardashian. Both, dangerous, abusive men who pose/posed credible threat to women and girls and shouldn’t be in female only spaces.

"unspecified hurtyfeelz"

This is the crux of the issue.

The worst thing that can happen to a man in the women's toilets is a woman asking him to leave.

The worst thing that can happen to a woman encountering a man in the women's toilets is being assaulted, raped and impregnated.

To any sane adult, the possiblity of serious physical harm to a female far outweighs the possibility of sad feelings to a male.Which is why we have sex segregated spaces in the first place. Which is why we don't give a shit if we're labelled transphobic for pointing this out.

A farmer does not consider the animals' feelings when separating the livestock with testicles from the livestock with uteruses. It is basic, everyday practicality that is understood across human history.

No.

I will acknowledge that there are two main broad groups of people who are trans. There are the transvestic fetishists and autogynephiles (men), and the ones with multiple mental health co-morbities, often including internalized homophobia, autism, PTSD, OCD etc (very often women but also plenty of men).

The first group are not distressed that they're not the opposite sex - it is precisely that they are men that means they get off on pretending to be women. It is the opposite of distress.

The second group are distressed for a variety of reasons, and that distress (and a dangerous cult that has come out of queer theory) has lead to them convincing themselves that their problems will disappear if only they were the opposite sex. Their distress is at the underlying issues, not the fact that they're not the opposite sex. The distress will go if the underlying issues are resolved; the distress will not go as a result of changing sex because no-one has ever changed sex nor ever will.

Do you mean the "hurtyfeelz" discussion? If that's all that you meant you should have been clear.

But what a great demonstration of how single specific instances get turned into vague accusations to tarnish the whole board - thanks T!

Does that mean you don't think that saying trans women are men is transphobic?

Jesus @Tandora I've just seen on the other thread you are complaining about the word "hurtyfeelz" being applied to trans people while dismissing a rape victim's need for single sex spaces as "trauma trumps"

Surely even you can see you have a serious double standards issue with this topic?

You suggested upthread someone else needs to touch grass. I think you need to take your own advice here. Take a step back and think about what you are finding yourself saying!

@FlirtsWithRhinos if you can post something I've said that you think degrades rape trauma then please share it.

I am a survivor myself, this is not an experience I would belittle.

If someone said "I am traumatised by rape", and I responded that those were "unspecified hurty feelz" that would be disgusting and you would all, rightly, not stand for it. I would never, ever say something like this, so please stop pretending there's any sort of equivalence to be drawn here.

Also, I know we don't do troll hunting, but I just mention this as a life hack:

If you're a PBP trying to come back under a new identity, try to vary your style so it isn't instantly recognisable. For instance, saying smorgasbord where you might once have said veritable smorgasbord is low energy and will lead to posters saying "oh, it's you!"

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5422838-what-is-trans-and-why-does-it-justify-undoing-sex-in-law-society-culture-and-history?page=40
Taztoy · Today 11:17

Trying again. Please can you answer me. Thank you.
I have been respectful, I have not been insulting. I have engaged with you. I accept your premise that trans people exist.
But you refuse to even acknowledge my question.

Tandora · Today 11:19

You do this on every thread - ask me the same question over and over again - which seems to boil down to why does my trauma matter less than someone else's or something?

I'm very sorry for what you have been through and how it has affected you.
I do understand trauma from CSA/ rape because I have lived it.
I do not want to play trauma trumps - that's not what this conversation is about.

-----

This is you, today, literally telling a rape survivor that wanting you to acknowledge her need for a single sex space to exclude trans women is as valid as a trans women's need to be included in women-only spaces is "trauma trumps".

All she wants from you is for you to acknowledge that there is a clash of needs here. And you will not even do that.

Tandora · Today 10:39

Maybe I will start a thread (/series of threads) for those of us who may not agree/ have very different opinions, but who are capable of respectful conversation and actually want to hear a range of different opinions on this topic and engage in a productive, respectful and nuanced exchange.

But you dont seem to want to hear different opinions, from what I see, you just want everyone to agree with your ideas.

😂

I stand by that.

That is a poster who has frequently and persistently asked me the same question over and over again - regardless of the conversation "why does my trauma matter less than x, y, z" - in an attempt to control the conversation.

I have never diminished her experience, or called it "hurtyfeelz" I have simply pointed out that it is not useful to frame this conversation in terms of whose trauma matters more, and I stand by that.

Wow.

That's it, wow.

Wow wow wow wow.

I thought I recognised it 😂😂😂😂

Colour me shocked that yet another thread has turned into Episode 29332 of The Tandora Show.

Edited to add - at least the thread title is apt.

FFS

"I have never diminished her experience"

"it is not useful to frame this conversation in terms of whose trauma matters more, and I stand by that."

When you say "it is not useful to frame this conversation in terms of whose trauma matters more" but also insist that trans women must be accomodated in female--only provisions if the only choice is male or female because the distress of being treated as male is too much for them, and refuse to even discuss this with a woman who needs a single sex space because you do not think her opposing needs are relevant:

you ARE diminishing her experience

you ARE saying trans women's needs outweight hers

you ARE framing this conversation in terms of whose trauma matters more, because you are framing it by WHOSE VOICES YOU EXCLUDE

Maybe I will start a thread (/series of threads) for those of us who may not agree/ have very different opinions, but who are capable of respectful conversation and actually want to hear a range of different opinions on this topic and engage in a productive, respectful and nuanced exchange.

This would need to be outside of MN @Tandora 😄

Ah well we will have to agree to disagree both on what I think and what I said.

Which kind of gets to the heart of the whole thing doesn't it?

You think the most important thing here is how someone thinks inside, and I think it is what they actually do in the world and how they treat other people.

haha