TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

So trans people might not have gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoric people might not be trans, is that what you are saying? (I'm not disagreeing, just trying to confirm).

There might be some overlap, but also people who will be one and not the other.

So it's important not to conflate the two, I would say.

I'm not sure what you mean by socially transition - how do agender people, for example, socially transition? Why would they need medical services? Or do you personally not class them as trans if they don't require medical services or need to transition?

So trans people might not have gender dysphoria, and gender dysphoric people might not be trans, is that what you are saying? (I'm not disagreeing, just trying to confirm).

The first statement yes. The second statement - it would be very unusual for someone to meet the criteria for a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria if they weren't trans, but yes it is possible.

There might be some overlap, but also people who will be one and not the other.

"Some overlap" definitely isn't an appropriate description. Gender dysphoria is the clinically significant distress that very often results as a consequence of being trans.

So it's important not to conflate the two, I would say.

Yes. It's important to recognise that the two things are separate.

I'm not sure what you mean by socially transition

Social transition refers to any action a person takes to live comfortably in their gender, e.g. changing name, pronouns, mode of appearance, participation in activities, etc.

how do agender people, for example, socially transition?

As above, they may change their name, pronouns, mode of appearance, etc.

Why would they need medical services?

I don't think this is a genuine question. As you well know, I'm sure, some trans people suffer from significant distress as a consequence of having physical characteristics that do not match their gender (e.g. having breasts but seeing self as being male). These individuals may seek out medical interventions such as hormonal therapies, and/ or surgical interventions, in order to support them to change these physical characteristics to alleviate that distress.

Or do you personally not class them as trans if they don't require medical services or need to transition?

No being trans is separate to whether someone social or medical transitions. Being trans is something one is, transitioning is something someone might do as a consequence of being trans.

Why would they need medical services?
I don't think this is a genuine question. As you well know, I'm sure, some trans people suffer from significant distress as a consequence of having physical characteristics that do not match their gender (e.g. having breasts but seeing self as being male). These individuals may seek out medical interventions such as hormonal therapies, and/ or surgical interventions, in order to support them to change these physical characteristics to alleviate that distress.
Or do you personally not class them as trans if they don't require medical services or need to transition?
No being trans is separate to whether someone social or medical transitions. Being trans is something one is, transitioning is something someone might do as a consequence of being trans.

Sorry to be unclear - I was talking about agender people here.
How would an agender person change their appearance? To what?

Social transition refers to any action a person takes to live comfortably in their gender
Agender people don't have a gender identity. That's kind of what underlies my question. You assume that agender people have a gender to live comfortably in which directly negates their own identity!

How would an agender person change their appearance? To what?

Anyone can change their appearance.
With regard to what? Depends on the person.
The point is that social transition refers to any action a person takes socially to live more comfortably in their gender (this might including changing name, clothes, etc).

The same goes for medical services. Not all trans people will seek out/ require medical services, but these would refer to medical interventions that a person takes to live more comfortably in their gender.

I did some googling and for this definition of gender dysphoria. Do you agree or disagree with it?

Gender dysphoria refers to an individual's affective / cognitive discontent with their assigned gender but is more specifically defined when used as a diagnostic category.

The definition seems to suggest that the dysphoria relates to the dysphoric person's unhappiness with their "assigned gender" (aka - if you believe in science and reality - "observed sex"), not their unhappiness at failure to medically and socially transition. It also suggests that gender dysphoria is part of the diagnosis, thus to be trans one must be dysphoric.

I’m glad you’re taking this so very seriously.

Sounds like 'reframe your trauma' to me

I take the subject seriously, I did not take that post seriously.

Why don't you leave me alone?

Happy to engage in a substantive conversation about the issues.

People hear a lot of things that don't match my words.

To obtain a GRC you must have a diagnosis of gender dyshoria from a registered doctor or clinical psychologist who practises in the field of gender dysphoria.

Why didn’t you take that post seriously? It was perfectly reasonable to me and I suspect most people.

Why, as a matter of public policy, should your philosophical belief get to trump other's trauma response?

Nah. I got the “reframe your trauma “ vibe too. Why is it ok for a woman to suffer trauma and distress by having to share spaces with males, but not ok for a male to suffer trauma and distress by being excluded from those spaces? Surely if a male is upset by being excluded from somewhere he is not allowed to be, he’s the one who needs to “reframe his trauma”.

The definition seems to suggest that the dysphoria relates to the dysphoric person's unhappiness with their birth-observed sex

Yes this is correct.

not their unhappiness at failure to medically and socially transition

Without medical and social transition a person typically appears/ is perceived as their birth-observed sex. This results in distress. Social and medical transition supports the person to align their social identity and their physical body with their cognitive experience.

This will be blunt -
I don't consider you to be a reasonable person, so what sounds reasonable to you is of no interest to me.

Nobody is "trumping" anyone else's trauma. This is not a helpful or grownup framing of this conversation.

Be as blunt as you like @Tandora. The feeling is entirely mutual, obviously and it also applies to your cheerleaders on this thread.

Tandora seems to be switching the order of trans identity and gender dysphoria.

Historically gender dysphoria would result in people saying they were trans.

Not I'm trans, and if you don't agree with me, then I'm going to be gender dysphoric.

Give that Tandora isn't even trans, they sure have very definite views on what is and isn't trans and who to include and who to exclude, and contradict many, many famous trans people about their own identity and experience.

I'm sure we are all aware.

Shall we return to the topic?

I’m happy posting as I see fit, @Tandora- the exact subject of the thread is TRA trolling on Mumsnet.

Historically gender dysphoria would result in people saying they were trans

Ahh I see where you are confused. No this is completely backwards. Being trans proceeds gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is the distress that can result in being trans. This is as per the DSM.

Quite.

Come on Tandora , why don't you just cut to the chase.

If a woman does not believe a trans identifying man is a woman, is that transphobic?

If she does not want to accommodate him is that transphobic ?

If she does not want him in her space, is that transphobic?

I think if we get back to the what the topic of the thread is, I’m coming around to ‘ignore would be better than no’. Starve them of the attention they so desperately seek.

That's all your creation story and your version of events.........which we reject.

What next?