TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

It's profoundly transphobic to belittle and mock a trans person's experience of gender dysphoria.
Your comparison to your cat is also profoundly transphobic.
This is not funny.

Gender dysphoria is not funny and it's not trivial

Tandora, serious question: do you believe gender dysphoria is a requirement of what you consider to be 'trans', or do you think many trans people can be trans without any gender dysphoria, so it's not a necessary criterion?

Gender dysphoria is the distress that may result as a consequence of being trans. This is set out in the DSM.
Many trans people will not experience gender dysphoria - e.g. if they have access to appropriate medical services and are supported to socially transition.

OK. But you called me transphobic before when I have never done anything more than make the case for maintaining the social, legal and political existence and rights of female people as distinct from male. I'm glad you are stepping back from that.

As to the examples, without context I will keep an open mind. There is obviously a difference between saying "all trans women [something]" (unless the sonething is fundamental to being trans, like prioritising their identity over women's sex based experiences) snd saying "this subgroup/specific group of trans women are [something]" based on what they are saying or doing.

I have, very rarely, seen examples of the former on MN that I would consider actually transphobic, as in assuming only bad intentions for trans people. Far fewer, I will note, than I have seen examples of your favoured posters making sweeping statements about women on FWR, MN or who hold what they define as TERF views. But nevertheless, it does, rarely, happen and it is ugly.

What I have seen far more in fact is women making a statement of the latter type, "[some group of] transwomen do/say [problematic thing]" and this then being wrongly repeated by someone on the TRA side as "FWR posters say trans women are [the thing]", turning it from a considered and fair statement B to a transphobic statement A.

That does happen a lot, which is why I am wary of statements without context.

For example, your example "you wouldn't dare say that if you were confronted by a trans identified male in a prison" - that I do remember and the poster was pointing out that your definition of trans actually excludes many people who do claim to be trans women including some violent prisoners, so she was expressing doubt that you would have the courage to tell.such a person he is not trans. She picked a extreme example exactly to make her point that eiher your definition has to work for such people as well or you need to be brave enough to say it doesn't. A non extreme case wouldn't make her point. I'm not sure why you think that was transphobic.

Well I will consider it accurate, funny is up for grabs, until a man or indeed a woman, can tell me what feeling like a woman means. As that has never been clarified.

If that's transphobic, then that's a hat I'm OK with wearing.

But you seem to think everything bar blind acceptance without explanation is transphobic, so there's no winner here.

Apart from the cat who has no shits to give on the matter.

Are you ok hun? I’m still waiting for all the peer reviewed papers you said you had a list of? How can I read them as you told me if you wont provide them? You said there were loads but I can’t seem to find any thst back up your hypothesis?

I have, very rarely, seen examples of the former on MN that I would consider actually transphobic

I cannot agree with you there. They are being posted on this thread as we speak!

Anyway...

If that's transphobic, then that's a hat I'm OK with wearing.

I can see that.

I suspect I'm not alone if we base transphobic on 'anything you disagree with'.

Brings to mind the old quote that men are afraid that women will laugh at them, while women are afraid than men will kill them.

If transphobic means prioritising women over men in situations where sex matters, then I'll wear that hat too

So trans people won’t have gender dysphoria but will have this neurological condition you claim being trans is? So what is the name of this neurological condition? Or is it an inner knowing of self? Or is it a DSD? I can’t keep up. That’s why I need the papers you said you’d link me to. Maybe one of them will show me the error of my ways?

What Jamie said.

Really?? Do link?

@Tandora

if a women says she doesn't want a man ( whether trans or not) in a female single sex space such as changing rooms is she transphobic

I thought that gender dysphoria wasn't part of your explanation for "trans" people now. This week you are promoting without evidence that the "trans" experience is like autism but actually give a text book description of a delusion.

Tandoori: It is literally just that - to have a pervasive , profound, unrelenting recognition of self as being the opposite sex.

A delusion is a firm, fixed, false belief, maintained despite clear evidence to the contrary, and not explained by the person's culture. These are symptoms of a mental, neurological, or medical disorder, with examples including believing that one is being plotted against (persecutory) or has extraordinary powers (grandiose) or that one is a member of the opposite sex (trans).

Can we establish what isn’t transphobic? Might save us a lot of time.

I will still say that nobody knows what it feels like to be a woman except for Shania Twain.

More seriously: I know my own body, and the things I like and dislike about it, and the injuries and infirmities that have built up over the years.

I know there is such a thing as social expectations built on stereotypes - often sexist, but I can't help noticing that when I was a kid we were much more unisex and much less constrained by stereotype, and the girls who were a bit tomboyish were just a bit tomboyish and not convincing themselves that they were boys.

There are physical bodies and there are socially conditioned stereotypes, and everything else is personality. I don't know what an innate sense of oneself as actually being the opposite sex means, unless it's a delusion.

And I've said this more than once to Tandora: you're obviously intelligent, so why do you keep doing this thing of seeming to use common words so it's not clear where you disagree with us, then saying "ah but you're using these words in the colloquial sense and I'm using them in a special sense that you muggles can't understand"? Bearing in mind recent legal cases, do you think that humptydumptyism has served the trans cause well?

It’s also possible to be both vulnerable and abusive, or vulnerable and dangerous.

Nope… I’ve got nothing. I can’t think of anything that won’t be called “transphobic” at some point. Except maybe cheese. I don’t think cheese is transphobic but sausages are.

the typo is v amusing ngl

What if the sausage identifies as cheese?

Oh dear. It seems that the phrase "unspecified hurtyfeelz" gives you "unspecified hurtyfeelz".

Yeah, when Ezra Miller was off on what looked like a psychotic break, all the media outlets covering his criminal activities were careful to give him pronoun respect. Which, since Miller goes by they/them, suggested that there were multiple Ezras.

Ezra Miller is a very public example of somebody who's obviously vulnerable, and who probably shouldn't be allowed out amongst the general population.

It is a hat you are clearly happy to wear as well, given the transphobic way that you deny that autogynephiles and tranvestic fetishists and transmaxxers are trans.

What gives you the right to gatekeep what it is to be trans?