J.K Rowling's Position

[middler]

I am not a regular on these boards but I am aware of the controversy over J K Rowling's position as I have encountered so many young people who have become very hostile with me if I do not show that I do not go along with them in their views that she is the equivalent of a racist in her attitude towards racists. I try and stay neutral and not declare my views but that is not enough for them. They want tos ee you express the same vitriol that they have so they can be assured you are on the same side. I find it so anti democratic frankly.

Privately I was relieved with the British ruling that means trans women who may well still have a penis and all the bad actors who could then take full advantage of a law that allowed transwomen into women only spaces, are not allowed to access those women spaces. I appreciate that most transwomen just want to go about leading their daily lives identifying as women and using women spaces is part of that and they have no ill intent. But many do not have bottom surgery and so yes they still have a penis as do the men who can just wake up one day and say they identify as a woman and start using those women only spaces and not have good intent? What am I missing? Why don't the younger generation see this and get that it is a huge risk to women? Do they think that there will be no bad actors? I just do not get it. The law is not to punish transwomen. It's to protect women.

I am not without sympathy for transwomen who genuinely feel uncomfortable going into male spaces. I appreciate that they identify as female but I just feel it's a conflict of rights and that you cannot sacrifice the right of women to feel safe in a women only space so that the smaller % of transwomen do not feel uncomfortable. Safety trumps comfort.

I personally would not react to a transwoman being in a female toilet but then I am aware how do I know it is a genuine transwoman and not a bad actor so I appreciate other women not being comfortable.
Maybe we need additional gender neutral toilets in this day and age.

But when this topic comes up with many younger people I can tell that the fact that I do not join in with the hatred for JK Rowling, that it puts me in the pro JK Rowling camp and I do agree with her support of ensuring that law got passed.

I am not so sure about the comments she made about kids not being trans as I think some kids as teens do seem to think they are in the wrong gender, maybe not in the large numbers that we are seeing today but clearly some people do feel they were born in the wrong gender and as a society I think we do have to support them without sacrificing the rights of an other group.

Rowling has never expressed hate for transpeople as far as I am aware. I do think she can be provocative in how she expressed her views and that is her choice but I just do not understand how the younger generation claim she is the equivalent of a racist but with trans rights? The language they use about her is so strong and I really try to avoid conversations about her because it has become so divisive- it is hard to find a millennial who does not agree with Emma Watson's viewpoint.

I am not 100% up to date with all Rowling has said but what has she said that is so bad that the younger generation have such deep hatred for her? I am just trying to understand it better and be ready to respond to the vitriol I get from younger colleagues when it comes up as it does seem to.

Absolutely this. Women have been doing this for years, and it's taken immense courage because they were often punished and derided and bullied and abused for speaking out, and often lost the resource or service.

Sarah Summers - who tried a mixed sex 'women's' rape crisis service, the behaviour of one of the men there made her so distressed in trying to seek help for her rape she asked if she could have a women-only group. There was a men's group, an LGBT group and a women's group open to self identifying men, so in fact men had three options. She was refused and had to fight for years through court because the existence of an accessible service to help her was too offensive to men. Her case is well documented, she is a MNetter.

There were the women in a refuge who asked for a meeting (one was a MNetter and shared here) with leaders and I think an area leader, a well known one, to explain how distressing they found it to have men in the space where their own sons weren't allowed as too traumatic for women. They were openly laughed at by the activist leaders, many of the women sharing their experiences were in tears, and one later told the press that 'no woman had ever shared a problem'. Just simply erasing those women and their stories out of existence.

There are accounts of women sitting in rape crisis service meetings where women are talking about their assaults, where they have observed men who have identified into the group listening to their stories of awful and intimate sexual assault and watched them practice the body language and expressions and then use them and part of the stories they hear from women to create their feminine performace in the group.

Sandie Peggie who asked for privacy to change blood stained scrubs and was told no by a man who stood on his right to be there and watching, and for her to be allowed no escape. The Darlington Nurses, asked by the man in their changing room when they would start taking their clothes off.

It goes on and on and on. Unfortunately it has to be acknowledged that some men find this actively exciting, both women's distress and knowing the woman can't avoid them (what did that male journalist in the Guardian say about choosing the young assistants when he bought women's underwear and how he liked to give them a smile that said 'I know you're not enjoying this but I am' where her discomfort was part of his excitement), and the sexual accounts. And many men enjoy oh so logically 'debating' women's lives from their superior and rational perspective, as an act of power. Read some threads here, read some activist forums, then read some Lundy Bancroft. You'll be staggered.

Well, arguably some of these people may have a condition similar to other body dysmorphias and should be helped rather than ridiculed. Not to say they should be allowed in women's spaces but there's a big difference between being sympathetic and directing vitriol at them.

Like, it would be wrong to tell an anorexic person that they're fat and go along with their delusion. However, it would be equally wrong to mock and ridicule them for their condition. In reality, this is difficult because some TRAs are obnoxious, confrontational, and there's the obvious changing room conflict where the contentment of each party is mutually exclusive. But in some cases this problem may just be a symptom of the individual genuinely believing they were born as the wrong sex.

Thank you everyone. I have not read all the responses and it will probably be the weekend when I get to do that as I am busy at work this week. I understand that it is a very difficult area but there are clearly people who are born as men or women but wish to live their lives as the opposite sex or feel like they are born in the wrong sex/gender and I accept that and I can see many of you don't. I think it's the hatred of Rowling that I have been trying to understand since I feel her opinions are not unreasonable but I have found that if you share that you think Rowling's arguments are not unreasonable you are categorized as being a TERF or in that part of the venn diagram and I suppose i am just trying to work through it.

I don't want to make people who are trans ever feel excluded ( they are already in a minority) but I also do for example support the law being upheld in the UK to not allow transwomen for example in womens' spaces, so I am aware there is a contradiction in my position..

I will read through the responses and become more informed and the best option may be to just smile nod and not engage because I would not say to someone I do not believe in gender identity theory as I do deal with people who are trans in my life and workplace. Doesn't everyone today? I certainly want to treat them kindly and fairly but I am sure many of them would think me unkind for finding most of Rowling's views acceptable.

"What I was originally asking about was larger-scale evidence about the threat that some say trans women pose to women in those primary circumstances described by Rowling.
If you have any links to studies or reviews about the threat that trans women as a population pose to women, please can you post? If studies/reviews don’t exist yet (I’m sure others with more expertise may know better than me) then online sharing of anecdotal experiences of women in those situations could also form important evidence."

Given the numbers of the trans women population is so miniscule (approx 0.5%) its unlikely there's going to be any statistically significant data where meaningful conclusions can be made. As incarceration numbers don't adequately reflect sexual violence offending numbers, offending patterns via self reporting surveys are an indicator of crime but again statistically significant data comes into play as does the unreliability of self reporting. What we can glean for self reporting is generalisations about men offending at a substantially higher rate than women but this is confounded by the categories of men & women who offend at different rates & the circumstances they offend in. Older, wealthier men & gay men offend at substantially lower rates than younger, poorer, straight men. Lesbians offend at much higher rates than heterosexual women with some studies showing lesbians offend at higher rates than gay men for sexual violence. The circumstances indicate that the overwhelming majority of sexual violence by men & women is perpetrated by someone the victim know in the home, workplace, date, friendship group. IE not in public bathrooms.

Given that lesbians are considered a greater risk to women than straight women shouldn't they also be using 'separate spaces' for consistency sake? After all they are a larger population than trans women?

The answer is no because the risk of sexual violence from lesbians just like trans women isn't in public bathrooms. Public bathrooms usually being busy places don't afford opportunities to offenders. Privacy/isolation does.

"What you’ve posted is absolutely alarming. It looks like what I would call ‘secondary content’ - i.e. content where abuse and slurs link to those engaged in the discourse itself, rather than content documenting the experiences of women who’ve been harmed by trans women in situations of concern like those raised by Rowling around female-only spaces. This type of content exemplifies one of my original points about how the inflammatory discourse around this has detracted from and damaged sensible, proportionate discussion like you and I are trying to engage in here."

Inflammatory speech, particularly hate speech on the internet doesn't appear to manifest in direct real world violence on any meaningful scale. Its real harms come about when its so widespread against a particular group that it has the indirect capability of facilitating institutional action as evidenced in numerous genocides so I doubt that a very small pocket of abusive trans people could ever garner any widespread social risk to others. However, that certainly doesn't excuse or condone it & we must work towards eliminating it.

But Musk's free for all on X has normalised demonisation & dehumanisation/hate speech. And that's not just coming from racists & trans people but gender critical feminists. I don't see them calling out Musk for his blind eye to abuse or them lowering the temperature although when pressed will minimise their views as being limited to just 'women's safety'. In fact they laud him for his free speech absolutism. The fact is free speech absolutism & civilised speech are mutually exclusive. And when added to the normalisation of inflammatory rhetoric is going after people's right to self determination, dignity & safety without opportunity for recourse is begging for a back lash of barbaric vigilantism. Injustice breeds injustice. Brutality breeds brutality. We just saw this in Gaza & Israel. October 7 didn't come out of a vacuum but decades of violent oppression as did many brutal historical uprisings. It takes two to tango…

Be the change you want to see? Cue victim blaming as is want in Israel to avoid responsibility.

4, 3, 2, 1….

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299945533_Sexual_Orientation_and_Involvement_in_Nonviolent_and_Violent_Delinquent_Behaviors_Findings_From_the_National_Longitudinal_Study_of_Adolescent_to_Adult_Health

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/019188699090146I

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02902-9

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233019813_Knowledge_About_Heterosexual_versus_Lesbian_Battering_Among_Lesbians#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20few%20decades,public%20discussion%20on%20the%20phenomenon.

Do you even know anything about far right anti semitic narratives? It would appear JKR does:

https://x.com/esjesjesj/status/1975244633723879783

“But Musk's free for all on X has normalised demonisation & dehumanisation/hate speech. And that's not just coming from racists & trans people but gender critical feminists.”

And this is again showing your ignorance. Most of the examples that have been posted here on this thread have been examples from well before Musk took over X.

The pattern of behaviour has been established for years. If you had ever bothered to open mindedly started discussing the issue with any of us on this board instead of behaving as you have done now for months you might be a little better informed than you are.

As to your claim that the interactions are restricted to social media, that is again simply false. Again, just here in the UK we have demonstrated how that violence from social media has translated to violence and intimidation in real life. Where female people have to be protected by lines of police just to enter meeting venues!

And that women are being told that our abusers who are male people should be accepted into female single sex spaces.

Shall we also post the violence that happens to women meeting in the USA, NZ and Australia too? It is not just a UK issue.

So your ‘it just remains on social media’ claim is very clearly false.

“Injustice breeds injustice. Brutality breeds brutality. We just saw this in Gaza & Israel. October 7 didn't come out of a vacuum but decades of violent oppression as did many brutal historical uprisings. It takes two to tango”

Fuck!

You have just done it again.

Women, ‘if you don’t allow male people to enter your groups, male people won’t know how to treat you with respect’.

Women, ‘watch out! If you don’t give this group of male people access to your single sex spaces, then you should expect those male people to retaliate with brutality and violence.’.

Every day there is another form of intimidation coming directly from you on this board. You simply can not accept women saying ‘no’.

Female people saying ‘no’ to male people is not injustice”. Female people saying ‘no’ to male people is not ‘brutality”. It is beyond catastrophising and beyond hyperbolic to leverage the incidents you have just attempted to here.

This line of argument is yet another example of DARVO. It is abusive and it is done for the chilling effect.

Your leverage of the situation in Gaza is showing just how far you will go. You know no boundaries.

@middler You are getting a daily demonstration of why those people who disagree with JK Rowling act the way they do and why they believe that they are righteous in doing so.

It can take some time to see what women are referring to when it comes to seeing tactics that are abusive in nature being used to try to influence opinion. For instance, you might end up reading this thread through more than once. It is natural that things will occur to you later that you come back to and ponder.

For instance, my reference to Women, ‘if you don’t allow male people to enter your groups, male people won’t know how to treat you with respect’. is my paraphrased reference to just one of the misogynistic points that poster has used over the past few weeks. All to convince women that we are wrong to want female single sex spaces. I am horrified to see the situation in Gaza being leveraged now to threaten women to accept male people in female single sex spaces.

Knowing also that on this board we are subject to this behaviour over and over while then being told we are the hateful ones, the extremists, and by posters with new user names, is a great example of just what you have been questioning. How you have been treated by those people who say you cannot agree with JK Rowling.

But once you see it, you can pick the pattern.

"And this is again showing your ignorance. Most of the examples that have been posted here on this thread have been examples from well before Musk took over X.

Th difference being hate speech was heavily policed before Musk took over as in reports of abuse were actioned with deletions & suspensions ruthlessly given as they were to provocations that invited them.That's not happening now which only encourages the vicious circle of provocation & retaliation. Of course what Terf Is A Slur.com won't conveniently show is the preceding provocations.

"As to your claim that the interactions are restricted to social media, that is again simply false. Again, just here in the UK we have demonstrated how that violence from social media has translated to violence and intimidation in real life. Where female people have to be protected by lines of police just to enter meeting venues!"

Security at contentious public events IE that target the basic rights & dignity of people has long been a thing prior to social media. The idea that people take oppression lying down is a hot one…

Motte bailey…..🥱

OP- you might also notice how that poster has in one post made a statement about the situation between Israel and Palestine to create a chilling warning to women who do not accept male people should be accessing female single sex provisions, and then immediately accused JK Rowling of being anti-Semitic.

The inconsistency that you have just seen is quite common in those who demand that male people should have access to single sex provisions.

If hate speech was heavily policed on Twitter before Musk bought it, why were those tweets allowed to stay on twitter?

And they were allowed to remain on twitter before Musk took over because we on MN were still linking to live tweets of that nature.

“Of course what Terf Is A Slur.com won't conveniently show is the preceding provocations”

Fuck.

There it is again! The victim blaming. More misogynistic posting on a feminist board.

It just keeps coming.

Please enlighten us. What have women said on twitter that was deserving of being considered provocation for those responses?

What has JK Rowling posted that was ‘valid provocation’ to the abuse she gets online ?

What is ‘valid provocation’ for women to be assaulted, abused, intimidated and silenced at women’s meetings?

“The idea that people take oppression lying down is a hot one…”

I see. Do you see the issues with you posting this?

The idea that people take oppression lying down is a hot one…

Do you see it yet? The hypocrisy in that sentence?

Maybe take your own advice & read the thread:

"What's wrong with JKR?
JKR doesn’t like to get her hands dirty so its not obvious. She shrewdly incites her hand maidens/useful idiots/simps to do that for her via plausibly deniable dog whistles. The evidence? Take a geez at the little shop o horrors on this thread for starters…."

Um, how twitter worked is abuse needed to be reported for it to be actioned which if what you are saying is true never happened.

Windmills…

“Inflammatory speech, particularly hate speech on the internet doesn't appear to manifest in direct real world violence on any meaningful scale. Its real harms come about when its so widespread against a particular group that it has the indirect capability of facilitating institutional action as evidenced in numerous genocides so I doubt that a very small pocket of abusive trans people could ever garner any widespread social risk to others.”

and

”I doubt that a very small pocket of abusive trans people could ever garner any widespread social risk to others.”

This is another version of the ‘it is just a few’ dismissal tactic.

Of course, it is not ‘just a few’ at all, is it ?

It isn’t just on social media either. As can be seen with signage and the chanting and the actions of male people in real life protesting at women’s events. Those would be the ones that require long lines of police to protect the women … from the male people….

Yes. I have seen your posts about JK Rowling. They bear little resemblance to accuracy and truth. And they usually rely on your usual accusation that women have ‘leaders’ and we all obey them. The misogyny in just that accusation alone is clear.

Please do keep posting though, because every time you do your own hatred and derision comes through in the terminology you use and the names you call women who disagree with you. Also in your very poor interpretations of just what it is that JK Rowling says or doesn’t say, or whistles, or whatever a woman does that makes you react the way you do.

It is the very demonstration of what the OP was questioning.

Ummm… No shit Sherlock!!

The amount of tweets I reported to twitter that were horrific abuse and that I received a message back saying that the tweet was acceptable is in direct contradiction to your claim that none of those tweets would have remained before Musk.

You can keep dismissing the terfasaslur content as much as you want. It is all there to see on that site. Some of it would have been deleted, but I remember reporting memes, videos and other content that was the same stuff and it all stayed up.

Now, would you like to post the provocation you keep claiming is the excuse for the violence and the abuse?

To make it easy and to keep it in line with the opening post, just post individual posts from JK Rowling that justified the abuse and threats she received. Not one of your links that you have relied on, but just your own selection and an in-depth discussion that doesn’t just regurgitate the poorly informed and misinterpreted points from the links you have previous posted. Show your own work.

Ware you saying that men treating violence rape and murder or women is women’s fault for saying no?? That is disgusting. The fact these men go straight to threats of violence and rape show they are indeed men and belong nowhere near female spaces. Males with a trans identity are make. They will never be women abd are not allowed in female spaces
now, don’t forget to change typing hands, antibac your devices and open your windows. Also change your sock.

If you look at that picture and your first thought is "Jews!" then you are the antisemite.

Every day we get a new example of ‘look at what happens if you exclude male people, bad things will happen to you so you better just make those people happy’ from some posters.

Interesting though to see the point that people should not be expected to “take oppression lying down” while women even discussing their needs are to be intimidated, demonised, dehumanised and threatened.

The message is clear. Women are to be threatened, assaulted, and abused into accepting their oppression without even a hint of any further complaint.

Women are to accept all these threats, assaults, abuse, and intimidation and the just allow those who are committing these acts to access the single sex space where they are vulnerable.

Women are expected to use these spaces where they are perhaps most vulnerable to being directly harmed with the very people committing these acts of violence and abuse outside those spaces. As if that behaviour outside of the space will never happen inside the space.

Like a miraculous change overcomes the people being abusive and threatening when they step through the door of a single sex space.

It is remarkable when you do understand this.

Nope, they are totally captured.

The fact women have been raped by 'trans women' in places that should be safe and single sex. Places like prisons, hospital wards etc.

They have just been told JKR is a transphobe and that is all they need.

There is actually a £1 million prize for anyone who can give an example of what she has said or written that is transphobic.

I gave up reporting dodgy tweets on Twitter (long before Musk bought it) because they were never deleted

It was the main reason why I stopped posting on there.