NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

So no sign in Upton's testimony or deportment of the crippling anguish that we were assured he was definitely feeling? I admit I've checked the pictures of him arriving at court on the 2nd day and he seems quite chill.

That thread was very eye opening on the last few pages. Where the OP posted and then confirmed that they rejected that any female person felt distress or experience harm when having to share privisions with male people with transgender identities. Apparently no female people were harmed or felt distressed and it is all lies or misunderstanding.

Whereas male people feel deep distress when they have to acknowledge that they have a male body and are not female when they have an ‘understanding’ that they are female. And that distress needs to be alleviated.

Unless you see it for yourself, it is really hard to reconcile that anyone could admit this on a thread. But those last few pages are actually quite sickening to read.

The OP's claims of their knowledge of what was going on in Upton's noggin were a bit disturbing. I mentioned erotomania on that thread. Or perhaps it was his mum.

In final submission, NC invites the tribunal to recall Upton's demeanour as a witness, and I'm pretty sure they won't be able to forget!

The people who escorted Upton into the tribunal (not family) had to be told off for sitting behind NC trying to look at her screen. The behaviour was atrocious all round from the group.

Overall he reminded me of a quieter version of Rick Pratt from The Young Ones https://theyoungones.fandom.com/wiki/Rick

This was a bit I remember vividly:

NC On 24.12 u stood yr ground re CR, but few hrs later u feel unsafe and later use the CR. Y're giving mixed messages?
DU No, I was shaken and freaking out. But then settled down. Gave a little info to a friend, that had an uncomfy incident and wld she accompany me as felt unsafe. No specifics. Put my big girl pants on but wasnt as brave as I thought I was, and went to plaster room in my socks
NC You explained thro tears to Elspeth, and tears on 29th. Not cos of threats from SP? No-one laid a finger on you. All this distress cos of what she said?
No. She asked Qs and compared me to a rapist. She'd decided to confront me. Never been spoken to like that in my life

The reference to Big Girl Pants was said very smugly as though it was rehearsed. The "I'd never been spoken to like that in my life" was shock-laugh-out-loud memorable. Really indignant entitled posh boy attitude.

NC How can u cope w my Qs over a longer period, that are more direct, w/out distress
DU I'm expecting it. Not ahead of Xmas and a long drive. My AE job is stressful and have to exude xlam. I deal w grumpy rude patients a lot, the parents of dying kids. I'm tapping into that
currently but am deeply distressed by this process

NC said more than TT managed to get down here, and she seemed to be testing out exactly what you're asking. Upton was grandly explaining that he was tapping into his almightly professionalism in court as a cover for his 'deep distress', but actually, he looked and sounded like a supercilious posh twat sneering down at anyone who challenged him.

Don't worry I won't. I've read enough of that posters drivel to last several lifetimes.

I was just going to post something saying similar, I've just finished reading it.

That post where Tandora said that female distress or harm done to females is not real has probably peaked a few people.

As distasteful as I find misogyny like Tandora's, it's at least useful to newer readers to see it laid out as clearly as that.

@NebulousSupportPostcard

Listen to the latest episode of Paddy's Podcast, interviewing the newly released Barbie Kardiashian, left me with a very similar feeling to this:

As if he had no idea that everyone present was watching all of it. [...] he lets his mask slip and seems to have no idea how that might affect his overall appearance to the watching public.

I initially thought BK had no insight into himself. But as it went on I realised he's actually moderately clear about his own actions and motivations - and staggeringly keen to talk about them - but seems utterly oblivious to the fact that other people are listening.

I don't think he understands that other people are people, and can hear, understand and act on what he's saying. Or that they might not view it in the same way he does. He desperately wants their attention and admiration, but also doesn't comprehend their independent existence.

He should be sectioned.

Quite. Apparently the OP knew exactly what Upton was thinking and feeling. The rest of us seemingly didn't know anything about anything, including our own thoughts and feelings.

Well, it's there for us all to see. Operation Let Them Speak was mentioned a few times, but this is childish apparently. The OP really has no self-awareness.

I thought that thread was illuminating.

The OP apparently had no concern for the wellbeing of people experiencing body anxiety/gender distress, but a steely determination to build a brave new world on their backs, to hell with any human suffering along the way.

And no interest in women, despite being a woman (allegedly).

Seemed to know them, especially DU, better than they know themselves. Certainly better than us silly wims, what with our easily dismissed own feelings, own distress, own experiences, <shudder> logic and <barf> facts. Despite admitting they're not trans and they don't know what it's like to be trans.

That thread missed reality again.

A person goes into a changing room and quickly leaves when they see someone of the opposite sex in there.

A person goes into a changing room and feels happy when they see someone of the opposite sex in there.

Situation one is reality and always has been as confirmed by the Supreme Court, while we're expected to agree that the second is also fine. Provided the person going in is happy, stuff the others.

Other people's happiness is not my responsibility across the board so why in this instance?

Why would Sandie need to put Upton's feelings before reality?

There has always been some obvious disconnected thinking there. But I was still surprised to have it openly shown.

I looked at the language several different ways to see whether it could be interpreted different ways to give benefit of the doubt. But the following posts clarified.

However, the disconnect is not just in the rejection of female people’s distress. But also is behind the definition they use. That being a woman is an ‘understanding’ that some male people have and that needs to be accepted, while also admitting that that ‘understanding’ is only labelled as ‘woman’ but can’t be a true label because there is no materially real reference point.

That ‘understanding’ is certainly not being accurately labelled, but that poster declares that it is valid.

While also then yesterday adding a new aspect of admitting that it is a ‘linguistic dispute’. While not also admitting that the people solely responsible for the ‘linguistic dispute’ is a group of male people demanding that they can misuse female language for themselves.

So, we had

-women and girls’ distress was completely rejected.
-a linguistic dispute admission without the further admission of responsibility of that dispute.

Added to a previous assertion about male people’s ‘understanding’ of themselves with the admission that this understanding doesn’t reflect female people’s reality but should be validated as being a version of female reality, if you know what I mean.

It was a very enlightening thread in quite different ways. The misogyny was very clear throughout.

The 'logic' was chopped so fine if the thread hadn't ended we might have caused nuclear fission!

The OP of that thread has stated on a number of other that Sandie was not afraid in the CR and only ask Dr U to leave because she is a bad person so not only does she have insight into the Dr's thoughts and feelings but is also an expert on SPs.

She claimed therefore that SP didn't deserve single sex spaces (but when pressed she admitted that in her opinion no women do, not teenaged girls, not elderly maiden aunts not Mother Theresa).

She spent several thread trying to persuade us all that transness is a DSD but appears to have dropped that obsession. She will not engage with any mention of AGP type situations, according to her all trans women are sweet gentle souls with a lifetime of knowledge that they are trans (although many people with actual DSDs have no idea until puberty) and any mention of any of poor behaviour is dismissed by her as bigotry and a willful luck of understanding.

Oh and she has also previously admitted to having little undestanding of sports but is still pushing for transwomen in women's events.

Sandie may or may not have been afraid, she may have been disgusted, angry, shocked, sad or anything. What she wasn't being was accepting of a wrong situation.

Upton knows he's male, Sandie knew he was male. Where it gets ridiculous is that everyone knows he's male and a select group want to say it's fine because he says he's not.

If her objective is using linguistic confusion to create a new society where neither trust nor trust exist, I can see why she cannot admit that some people suffer from anxiety or distress or that DSDs are real, or that AGP exists. Because any possibility of therapy or of recognising reality disrupts the 'tear down, build new' programme.

That kind of social revolution is usually started by a person who wants to be a totalitarian leader in the next age.

Human distress does not matter.

Illuminating and scary.

Yep. Seems pretty accurate.

The OP of that thread has very well established form over a very long time.

I may get deleted for this but oh well. I don't think we have a single good faith regular TRA poster on the board.

You don't suppose there's a reason why they know exactly what Dr Upton is thinking, do you?

In a way, the horrific way SP’s reputation was treated on the stand and where some things she said was highlighted when it was not relevant at all but used to position her as a problematic person, was useful.

It made it clear that it doesn’t matter what a woman says or does, she is still deserving of a single sex space. Good women, bad women, all women.

d'you think she's his mammy?

That is why I pushed and pushed the starter of the thread to get her to admit that her SP doesn't deserve single sex spaces stance was a smoke screen and that her position is actually no women deserve them. My view is the exact opposite, not only do traumatized abuse survives and preteens experiencing their first period deserve men free spaces but so do school bullies and gossips and people I don't like. You don't have to be nice to have rights.

It becomes very clear that some people supporting gender identity are very much supporting an ideal. They will spend inordinate effort to support the theory they believe in.

What they cannot do is discuss the application of their ideals. That is why they dismiss discussion about toilets and sport. They will diminish those discussions and try to present those who discuss it as being unworthy of intellectual discussion.