NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

As a general principle, ignorance of the law is no defence (to anything.)

Even in FWS the judgement was very clear that it's everyone's duty to know the laws that apply to them which is why laws must be clearly worded and unambiguous.

In my opinion, I don't think he can rely on that as a defence at all.

Can Fife concede if SP or Upton wants to continue?

I think Fife possibly wanted to roll over quite a while ago. The joint defence i think means that if Upton wants to continue, they both have to. Wonder if someone in their legal department is ruing a decision made?!

Wee Sondie is the claimant. Only she can unilaterally call a halt. They were expecting her to run out of money after a few days of hearings and then to have to settle. Her actual situation is a complete nightmare for NHS Fife and Dr U, as it appears she has effectively unlimited funds - as well as a tungsten backbone.

<snort>

If it carries on for years longer, he can claim that his offspring's DNA came from skin cells retrieved from the socks he was wearing in the plaster room.

🤣

Not sure whether this link will link - it's a report on FB. (Not an official MSM report.)

"DOWN THE PAN - NHS FIFE FINALLY DITCH TOILETS AND CHANGING ROOM POLICY"

Even if it just takes you to the account, should be easy to find. Was just posted a few hours ago.

https://www.facebook.com/FifeReporter

Fife could have not entered a defence, in which case the hearings would simply have been to determine how much compensation they should pay. It is too late for that.

They may have offered to settle, but they can't force SP to accept their offer. It is highly unlikely there will be a settlement now.

Re Upton, whilst they are mounting a joint defence, my understanding is that SP is suing Fife and Upton separately rather than as joint defendants. If my understanding is correct, Fife could, in theory, settle the case against them regardless of Upton's views. However, they could not settle the case against Upton without his agreement.

I'd like to think so too, but I'm not holding my breath.

Slight derail but anyone know why the discussion about the terf paper was deleted? Just curious as I hadn’t seen anything derogatory.

I think the deletion message said it was because the OP wouldn't be coming back

Ah well, I don't think I need to worry too much about being identified as a baddie by someone who doesn't know what sex they are. What matters imho is that Sandie gets closure and Naomi C is used to scare bad baby barristers.

It did, but our drive by scolders never come back 🤨.

On the tribunal results, I assume Big Sond will also need to consider procedural justice. Regardless of the ruling on the substantive issues (SC judgement surely helps here), I would hope that any ET judge would throw a whole shelf of books at any employer where consultants have foot-in-mouth WhatsApp groups including both complainant and investigator, where they interrogate junior staff, where no attempt is made to investigate for months and where treatment is far from impartial. Personally I’m hoping for at least a surprising plus a chance of an egregious from the bench. Even their own HR department said it was ludicrous.

Not a lawyer though.

Did JR try to defend any of this in the closing submissions?

Her oral closing submissions were 70% waffle and 30% claiming she'd come back to points that were then mysteriously never seen again. She's not, to my knowledge, released her written submissions or speaking notes.

[Edit for typo and because I reestimated the percentages]

I just want to ask this of anyone who saw DU testifying. I've just finished reading a 1000 thread started by an OP who promised us insight and delivered fuck all be kind with a black belt in being patronising. Did anyone notice the crippling anguish that we were assured DU was experiencing at being referred to as a man?

What an accurate description! 😂

Ha I've been not been on MN much in the last couple of days so I'd missed that thread. I've just found it and read the opening post and yep I had correctly guessed who had started it by the description.

@WarrenTofficer please don't waste your time reading the rest of it. There's no insight, in fact there's a staggering lack of it. From the OP anyway.

What? How have I missed this?😂

I saw some of DU's testimony. It was fascinating. I don't think I saw the evidence in chief but I saw Upton behaving extremely beligerently to NC. And then he switched and spoke quite respectfully to the Judge and panel. As if he had no idea that everyone present was watching all of it. He behaves very haughtily, as though he is cleverer than everyone else in the room, but then a minute later he lets his mask slip and seems to have no idea how that might affect his overall appearance to the watching public.

Oh and when I was looking back at TT todayy, I noticed what I think is a trademark "tell" of when he is lying - in one response to the judge. I will look it up again if that's of interest.

Also, I have a related burning question! I came into this tribunal late so I don't know if I have been oblivious up til recently, or if I am overthinking things now re this question but fwiw: am I correct in thinking that NC and various others have been coding Upton's behavior as sociopathic from the outset?

It was when someone commented the other day that they don't think Upton cares one bit for the feelings of Kate Searle or anyone else. And I have thought all along that there is nothing to suggest Upton really cares about what he calls "my people" or "my community". So I started looking up sociopathy, or ASPD as it is termed clinically, and all the key criteria seem to map onto terms that have been used to describe Upton's behaviour and attitude at various points.

Agreed.

As another aside, I was thinking yesterday that we were all saying or hearing repeatedly at the start of the Fife tribunal that "JR is a respected KC who is doing her best with what her clients have given her".

But I'm glad that's tailed off because, at this point, it would be almost as difficult for me to proclaim JR a great barrister as it would be to proclaim that TWAW. It was such a relief to listen to ST acting as counsel for Leonardo UK this week. Because although ST is very clearly in a similar position of having to make the best of the hand she has been dealt, she has managed to conduct herself in a manner that doesn't make her sound like a complete twat.

Be glad you did. That's a pointless chunk of my life I'll never get back!

Found it! Left it after 2 min!

Tbf, it was worth it because I found another interruptaron image for my collection