NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

That was from the internal investigation back in June.

They can't impose that as a condition- it's not within their power to mandate what goes into the revalidation. But if she did want to do it and needed a medical professional ouyside Fife, I suspect there are some nurses in Darlington who'd be happy to assist.

Totally agree Fanny - it’s like they don’t actually know what revalidation involves. I have posted similar before, but I doubt any of us have had time to read every post . it’s reassuring to know I’m not alone in thinking it’s nonsense.

I suspect there are some nurses in Darlington who'd be happy to assist.

To be honest, @NoBinturongsHereMateI think there is quite a queue of us on this thread who are suitably qualified and would be very happy - indeed proud - to sign her off.

And presumably validate her approach in the first place.............

Some medical managers blatantly misuse the appraisal process for management objectives, and no-one appears to stop them.

It’s not appraisal @TriesNotToBeCynicalthough - that’s the point. In order to maintain our registration we have to go through a revalidation process every three years. We have to produce evidence that we have worked the required hours, completed relevant learning and complete 5 pieces of the reflective practice. We share the evidence with our confirmer and they sign off they we have met the requirements. Although the confirmer is often a nurse manager, it doesn’t have to be and other nurses, indeed other HCP can be confirmers.

Sandie gets to choose her own pieces of reflection and her own confirmer. No one from Fife has to be involved in the process at all.

@CarefulN0w Interesting. Sounds less corrupt than medical appraisal and revalidation!

I don't think it is even in their power to impose any condition if they are following NHS Scotland's Conduct Policy. The three outcomes of a formal conduct hearing are no case to answer, learning outcome or formal disciplinary sanction. I understand Sandie was no case to answer so that should be the end of the matter. If they wanted a "learning outcome" then I am sure Sandie would have appealed. But then we know how well NHSF follow policy...

I think the outcome was that a learning outcome was needed because of the way that SP behaved (!) But they had no right to impose a sanction that undermined the purpose of NMC revalidation processes.

Was that the outcome? Her solicitor's statement said none of the allegations upheld. If it had been a learning outcome then I would have expected an appeal.

Well we don't know whether there has been an appeal. But what MG reported to press was that SP had been cleared of all charges of gross misconduct. And then Fife reported that the outcome was that there was insufficient evidence blah blah, but that a reflective guided discussion was considered appropriate.

I think Fife made (yet another) error in giving a sanction related to revalidation, but it was from that decision that they were able to form their Bananarama defence.

I think the outcome was that a learning outcome was needed because of the way that SP behaved (!)

How exactly did she behave? The only witness to a transaction between Sandie Peggie and Upton, supported Sandie Peggie's side of the story.

Unless landing them with an Employment Tribunal is Not The Way to Behave - but in which case, making men stay out of the women's rooms should have been enforced and it wouldn't have happened.

Exactly @Peregrina

Well yes, but this is broadly what happened.

I think part of the confusion arose because Fife had completely lost the confidence of local press, and SP's team had been courting the press and drip-feeding stories throughout the case.

So when MG announced the headline news that all gross misconduct charges had been dropped, Fife wasn't immediately in a position to comment that not all charges had been dropped.

Has anyone shared this Herald piece about Swinney intervening (not in any effective way) yet? https://archive.is/xrA1F

Last line if the Herald Fife are still pushing the bananrama
defence ' it ain't what you do it's the way that you do it'

Sandie should have said, "please sir, if you don't mind and won't take it the wrong way or feel put out in any way, would you consider using your own facilities, please, pretty please, thank you with bells on top".
Would that have done it?

Fgs! Not 'sir'!!!

Man rather than sir?

It's

"Ma'am"

😃

the panel will arrange for [Ms Peggie] to undertake a facilitated reflective practice discussion to consider her decision making in relation to this incident. This will be supported by a professional nurse adviser and should be recorded for submission as part of her next NMC revalidation.”

This is power in action. You will bend to our will. If you don’t, we will remove your livelihood. Positively Orwellian in nature and something we’d find in China reeducation camps or North Korea. Another example of where the left and right circle around to meet each other in authoritarianism. It really isn’t about being right, it’s about being able to force your version of right on others. Impressive.

On the room itself, NHS Fife told the government: “It is important to note that the ‘changing facilities’ at the centre of the current employment tribunal is a locker room and not a designated changing room.

Oh ho… so now it’s that SP should not have complained because it wasn’t a woman’s changing room. They argue like children, no not that, this. Twisting and changing the parameters of the argument when they know the centre won’t hold.

Bastards really.

What…what difference do they think the distinction between locker room and changing room means? It’s irrelevant. The sign on the door says female so no males should be using it.

Yes, as if you have to change in one room then carry your stuff to another room to stash it in the locker. 🙄

Changing facilities are generally poor anyway in the NHS in my experience, in my hospital most wards don’t have showers for instance and yet it happens from time to time that staff may need to wash off after accidents with bodily fluids. So there really needs to be at least one toilet cubicle and shower cubicle (at a minimum) in the changing room with the lockers.

I believe the women’s changing rooms were secluded, in a basement, further away.

There are lots of assaults in hospitals. Women are more wary and this can be scientifically proven.

Urban design often ignores women’s perspectives, which makes women face many issues in urban life, such as safety. Ways to make urban streets better for women will also apply to a big hospital:

• clear boundaries: there must be clear boundaries between public and private spaces
• Eyes on ‘the street’. Ie being visible and not feel secluded.
• Lighting improvements: Increase lighting in areas to improve the sense of safety at night.
• Open views: reduce hidden corners of and increase visibility.

None of the above is rocket science. As women we are making these little decisions about where we change, go to the toilet, walk, travel all the time.

Even if the changing rooms were brilliant, the women were all still choosing to use the locker room.