student university toilets

[cigarsmokingwoman]

DD is a 1st year student at a university in Scotland and frequently comes home (she commutes) bursting because she doesn't want to use the student toilets which are apparently all unisex with urinals. She tells me she wanders the building in vain for a female only toilet and even tries going to other student buildings and cannot find them. Yesterday she says she was walking around for 20 minutes before giving up out of desperation and using the unisex one. I wonder how many other universities are the same? It's appalling. DD will not complain or cause a scene but it makes her very uncomfortable.

Well tbf, of course you think that. It would be very odd if you thought otherwise.

But trust me…. It’s more than a question of inconvenient.

And indeed the very fact you even think that it’s an issue of convenience really does demonstrate that, well…..

"Everyone here always talks about how biological sex is everything"

This is a mischaracterisation of what many people believe. And what is reflected in the SC ruling.

Yes, biological sex matters for certain aspects of life. One of those aspects is for access to female single sex provisions. Your oversimplification misrepresents the success of testosterone treatment on some female people in developing superficial male body cues. There may be female people with these superficial male body cues that might cause some female people distress if those female people don't realise the person is female. And no, some female people will not be able to tell. We see those posts from female people who cannot correctly identify the sex of a person beyond superficial body cues on MN all the time. They are the ones who say they cannot tell, so why do we think we can.

Either way, what is interesting is that quite a few female people who take testosterone understand that some other female people will mistake them as being male or will simply become distressed at seeing particular male body cues. They tell us that they will go out of their way to find alternative solutions. They communicate with each other and they plan for their needs.

You have mischaracterised what many people believe with that statement by removing context and over simplifying what many people believe / understand.

It obviously is as issue of convenience. You’re pushed for sex to be based on birth in the equality act but aren’t willing to fully accept the reality of that interpretation

I’m not doxxing my company, but yes, only gender neutral toilets. If people don’t want to use the mixed toilets, individual cubicles with a sink are available

Here is another male person using some classic men's rights activist type discussion points. This is not a surprise.

Women you demanded this, but you don't want to accept the consequences.

Meanwhile, you have mischaracterised just what feminists have been campaigning for in your oversimplificated point. Luckily, the Supreme Court judges understood the issues better than you seem to.

Do you think a trans man who has masculinised to the point women can’t tell should be using male spaces? If they should use gender neutral facilities, what should they do if one isn’t available?

If trans men are legally female under the EA, why should they be excluded from female spaces? I understand you’ll say because testosterone has masculinised them to the point women will be alarmed, but why should someone who is female not be allowed to use spaces for their sex? People here say men should be better at accepting all men so maybe some reflection is in order?

On the day when they release a report showing how widespread sexual assault is at universities yet fail to link it to this lack of basic respect for women might play into this

When are gender neutral facilities not available at all?

Do you include disabled/accessible in gender neutral provision?

"People here say men should be better at accepting all men so maybe some reflection is in order?"

Men should be better at accepting all men. You are really now discussing 'passing' and you are also trying to make an assymetrical situation symmetrical. It is true that if the exception under the EA was not there, then all female people would be expected to use female single sex spaces. However, the exception IS there, it was even read out in the Supreme Court judgment for the FWS case.

Just playing 'whatabout' like you are is just fuckwittery.

So glad i'm not at uni anymore. It was bad enough when my uni experimented with "gender neutral loos" Cubicals wern't floor to cieling - andf blokes could just wander in and out as they pleased - please note that this was formerly the ladies loos for this particular lecture theater - then they made it gender neutral. luckily no urinals but it was bad enough.

Luckily back then we actyually were able to complain without being called transphobic or whatever the heck the TRA's use now.

It got repealed after the vast majority of the female students complained.

Please, please, please show some RESPECT.

This is a thread asking for advice and help.

No one has to respond to deliberate derailers.

If you are that easy to poke into getting caught up in their nonsense it justs encourages them. And the cycle continues.

It is bad enough on a discussion thread but to indulge them on a thread asking for help and support is just so upsetting and disturbing.

I hope OP has got some positives out of this thread, but can imagine thinking of giving up on it.

Best wishes to OP's daughter and hope she finds a workable routine that includes being able to go to the toilet feeling secure and safe.

My younger (by 22 years!) sister attends sterling university. She says that there are no gender neutral toilets with urinals at the university.

And I see a PP quoted as such from the university’s website.

OP, a separate issue is that your daughter appears to have fibbed to you.

Do you mean Stirling?

Stirling uni still has many female toilets with no urinals unless they’ve changed it in the last day, pathfoot building, first on the right as you come over the bridge, separate men’s and women’s on that corridor, and the women’s has no urinals just cubicals. As well as many others, there is zero need for her to be holding it until she gets home

And also if she uses maze map which she will know about as it’s linked on the student app, she will be able to find the many female toilets by searching female toilets. Also I left it to long to edit but I meant cottrell over the bridge not pathfoot, the female toilets in cottrel are easy to find and clearly signposted and the first ones are literally as you enter the building from the bridge, the first corridor on the right.

Why did your daughter lie to you about the urinals OP? It would have been embarrassing for you had you complained to the university and then they’d explained that no urinals in any of the mixed toilets

All these people coming on a thread and deciding they know what the problem is.

We have found out a bit about OP's daughter, she is maybe a bit younger than many in starting life at university.

She may well have not seen or not felt able to ask about toilets.

Or got confused by the signposting.

I hope all those smug knowitalls dont have daughters who maybe need a bit of hand holding.

There's a really strange element of posting that seems to be happening on FWR now. Nasty and sanctimonious.

Also too lazy to read threads, as it would be obvious by now that many more sympathetic posters have provided information.

It would be sad if this type of hostility to someone asking a question that many of us feel someone should know that, dont take the more generous position, that it is because they dont that that they are asking the question.

Thinking this is FWR and they will get helpful and supportive replies.

Yes I agree @IwantToRetire it's a shame this thread has been derailed and also there are those questioning the op's daughter. Who, like me when I started at Stirling uni, is only 17. And if she's like me, I was a young 17.

I'm wondering if perhaps she witnessed male students peeing in cubicals with the doors open and in her panic thought it meant urinals? Lots of men do this according to my DH. If urinals are not available they will go to a cubical and leave the door open to stand and pee. It's madness to me, but probably they are so used to standing and peeing in front of other men that they wouldn't even think to close a cubical door to block the view of them in the communal area.

For women the toilet dynamics are just so much more complex and different. Menstrual bleeding, cramps, issues after child birth, urinary infections etc. Women have different needs. That not only require longer in the toilet, but more privacy. As usual, gender neutral toilets are impacting women more. However that's not to say some men also don't like it. I walked into one in Edinburgh last year and the man there already was equally as flustered as me when we came face to face. No one wants this.

As much as I'm loathe to recommend the Burrell museum (due to their platforming of a violent, threatening misogynist in one of their video displays) I actually think what they've done with the toilets is the way forward. Male, female, accessible/family changing AND gender neutral. Obviously being a big venue they can do this, but it's just really sad that this thread has been derailed and also the op has been minimised. @cigarsmokingwoman please reassure your daughter, find out what's happening and see if you can speak to someone who's a responsible adult at Stirling. Despite the issues I spoke about in my first post, I actually did have a good time when studying there once I found my feet.

Sounds more like she is struggling in uni so is bunking off in Costa etc.