Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

What’s the male equivalent of a Karen? Do tell. Thanks.

De transitioners aren't changing 'back' in personality rather in how far they want to embrace/express certain aspects of it.

Within the context that a transwoman is a subset of men and a transman a subset of women.

No one ever actually changes sex.

Also, remember to drink some water. Gotta replace those fluids.

Detransitioners are people who have realised that they were sold an absolute crock of shit, that male people can't become women and vice versa, and have made the sensible decision to try to accept themselves for who and what they really are.

This is why they are vilified by their former rainbow family. Because they are helping to expose the fact that trans people are all living a lie.

They’re still the sex they were born. For the purposes of the EA 2010.

And for all other purposes.

Yes.

In terms of access to SSS the EA is the relevant legislation, however.

apologies I’m editing a piece of writing at the same time as doing this as I’m waiting for the steam powered laptop to compile.

It clearly frustrates the fuck out of Howse that unlike in real life where no doubt he'd be using his male physique - height, build, voice, mannerisms to intimidate women to do what he wants, on here he can't. We just keep saying no because his 'arguments' such as thry are are quite clearly incoherent nonsense and boil duan too "women should say yes because it makes me angry/sad when they say no"

Absolutely nothing 'bigoted' about saying men need to stay in men's spaces, as per the law. HTH.

Do tell me how I was violently raped because of a “lack of contact”.

I can tell you his penis definitely went up my fanny and down my throat. And his hands were right on my throat until I passed out and pissed myself.

tell me how he did that without contact? Some sort of telekinesis?

Isn’t this “&” from howse a teensy bit transphobic?

“The movement from one state to another is socially living as the opposite gender by making changes to one's body & social status.”

Your answer is irrelevant to the point that MissScarlet was making.

That point being that your claim that psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities are in any way meaningful as a categorisation tool for determining the sex class of humans.

Because a female person who commits atrocities and is mature is a woman regardless of what she does or says. And that female person has free access to female single sex provisions.

So what that Ted Bundy was a murderer and someone described him as a loving person. It didn’t make him less or more of a man or make him a woman. It was not relevant to the question being asked.

You just accused MissScarlet of making a false equivalence by making one yourself.

I really wish mumsnet hq could see and make the connections understand how offensive it is to be told that my violent rape is my fault because of a lack of contact.

Lack of contact.

It’s the very definition of contact. Intimate and unwanted. And as a result of that contact he gave me genital herpes and hpv.

LACK. OF. CONTACT.

what the actual fuck.

Are women a bit of a mystery to you? 😥

I'm guessing you haven't come across our frequent use of the phrase "to put one's head above the parapet", indicating our fear of speaking out - usually in contexts such as work.

BTW the "Karen" stereotype is not about being outspoken. It more commonly refers to a smug conformist.

Sorry, what?

@Howseitgoin I’m just going to remind you and let everyone see that you said my violent rape and SA was my fault due to a lack of contact.

Attitudes like that show me exactly where the problem lies. And they will be clear to every other woman when I shine a light on you every time.

And do you see again why your claim that psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities is meaningless as a tool to categorise the sex class of a human.

You just pointed it out here. If the sex class of a human was dependent on a changeable aspect of a human depending on a particular point in time, it renders it a meaningless tool for the purpose.

Humans don’t change sex no matter how much you wish to believe that you can change sex. You can’t.

Hostility with an aftertaste of contempt.

Ah, another display of super femininity to liven up my breakfast ...

Sometimes we seek the company of women in order to have chats free of mansplaining and pointless willie-waving. At other times we're perfectly happy with male company. Yes, these are behavioural traits that are unevenly distributed between the sexes, to an extent that we notice it in our social lives. No, this has nothing to do with the single-sex exemptions outlined by the UK's Equality Act, which are to do with the impact of differing male/female biology on safety, fairness, dignity and privacy.

It is not 'authentic' for a man to pretend he's a woman or to expect others to recognise him as such, though. Being 'authentic, is simply feeling free to express what comes naturally. Personality and expression is not what defines someone as a man or a woman. The body and its biological function is what, ultimately, defines male or female.

Indeed I can. It's always interesting which posts hit the mark and which don't. I know I am very much far from being alone in my thoughts on this thread.

I have to say, resorting to calling MNers 'Karen' is the very definition of scrapping the barrel.

I don't think Howse realises how unintentionally hilarious he is. I'm howling at that one.

Nothing says "Hi, I'm a agiest, sexist, ignorant pig' more than calling us Karen's because he's run out of anything else to say that might be vaguely called an argument.

I can smell the desperation and the abject rage at not being able to think of anything coherent to respond to us all say "Er no, fuck off. Single sex means single sex not single sex plus invaders".

What is also pretty basic stuff is that people who have never met or seen someone who is of a different race or sexual orientation will still have respect for those people.

Your point has been to consider that women wanting single sex groups (not provisions needed for safeguarding including privacy and dignity) are or at risk of becoming a separatist movement. Your point is one that relies on absolutism and it is flawed because of that.

And additionally, your point being one based on absolutism then places the blame on female people for male people’s poor behaviour towards female people. This is not only victim blaming, it crosses over into the abuser’s code.

Ultimately, it is not the responsibility of female people to improve male people’s behaviour. And it is not the responsibility of female people to restrict their needs or their choices in the way you have tried to defend on this thread and others to make male people better people.

It is the responsibility of male people to act with respect and there are so many opportunities for male people and female people to interact everyday.

That some people are arguing on the internet that some female people having access to some single sex groups while still interacting with male people on a daily basis should not be allowed because male people wil not know how to behave respectfully is an absurd notion. So much so that it is an abusive notion.