Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

And as to this:

“Well know that there are several women who would either have enabled your rapist, denied your rape occurred, and had you demonised for talking about it. Both women who know and love your rapist, and women who just hate other women and perpetuate rape culture“

yes. I’ve had this happen. In real
life and on this board by some individuals who chose to come here to cause upset. What is it about consent that people don’t get? Why are there so many men who can’t respect a no and so many women who seek to enable them?

I can’t fix it all for you and I’m so sorry you’ve had that experience but my experience hasn’t been plain sailing either.

lol why am I not surprised

your mask is non existent

Have you ever seen an explicit rule where people arent allowed phones out in the changing areas? I don't frequent such places too often, but once I did enquire at the desk about phone use in the changing rooms. A woman appeared to text and make a call, but we have no idea if it was on facetime or something. You can't always see if someone is using a camera. At the desk, they said they dont have rules forbidding phone use but of course if we believe someone was taking pics, they'd do what they can to establish if they had or not.

Yes I have. The leisure centre specifically doesn’t allow phone use in the changing rooms. There’s signs up all over the place.

I bet it hasn't. That's why I find it incredulous that you see women as safe.

Yes a quick Google search tells me that this became a thing in 2024. Thats when places like Swim England made it an official rule of all their events.

I did not say I saw women as safe.

I specifically clarified that I see anyone I don’t know as unsafe but that I see women as less unsafe towards me in particular as they can’t physically rape me. I was physically overwhelmed by a man and strangled, raped and orally raped. And a woman can’t rape in U.K. law as they don’t possess a penis. And my changes physically against a single woman are better than against a 6ft bloke. Plus if it’s a single sex changing room, in the open area which is where I choose to change, a man is not permitted and would be ejected.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

against I’m sorry for what you experienced. But none of that means that men need to be in single sex women’s spaces.

I’m not in England. I don’t know about swim England. But the pool I use doesn’t allow phones and hasn’t for as long as I’ve been using it (since they re-opened after covid). There aren’t even phones allowed in the viewing areas.

furthermore my daughter plays a sport, and phones are banned in the hall at matches. And people will be - and have been - asked to leave or put their phones away.

@LoftyRobin
Separation=safety.

We can't eliminate all risk. But since men commit 98% of sexual assaults, excluding men from women's facilities excludes most of the risk. Women very rarely commit any kind of assault, and sexual assault even less often.
I'm sorry about your experience but how would it be better for you if men were also able to film you on their phones without having to rope in a woman to enable them? You say single sex spaces don't protect you from assaults from women and your experience makes you feel unsafe around both women and men but why shouldn't other women benefit from the exclusion of men?

Plus we don't want them there. Privacy, dignity. Different energy. The male gaze, etc.

Men don't want women around all the time either. Privacy, dignity
Different energy.
It's normal.

LoftyRobin

Nowhere is 100% safe. But in terms of risk mitigation, if you remove the sex that commit 98% of all sex crimes, you're reducing the risk by the biggest margin possible.

Once you add in that women stand more chance defending themselves against another woman, rather than a man, you've got a workable solution for most women.

There is no way to eliminate all risk. But sex segregation eliminates most of it.

Sorry to be graphic, but if a woman digitally penetrated you without consent, the last thing on your mind would be whether you were actually raped or "just" sexualy assaulted. You would have been horrifically violated and that is what would matter. Not what body part of theirs they used to do it.

Please believe me on that.

Do you understand that it is men who commit 98% of all sex crimes, not women?

Fucking hell

do you think we don't need single sex spaces because we might get fingered by a woman just as much as we might by a man??

christ

It's both. In certain contexts, e.g. when undressing, we women need a break from male sexual behaviour. That unwanted behaviour includes rape, but it also includes voyeurism and exhibitionism. Those behaviours may not cause us direct physical harm, but we are well aware that they are "gateway misdemeanours" for rape. We have good reason to believe (e.g. stats from the criminal justice system) that such sexual behaviours are just as prevalent among transwomen as among men as a whole, and may even be more prevalent among transwomen.

In other contexts covered by equality law, e.g. sport, the issue is more about fairness, but physical safety (i.e. safety from injury) also becomes relevant in contact sports.

And yes, sometimes we women just don't want men around. I'm in two book groups where all members are female. We don't exclude men, but none have asked to join. Our conversations drift from books to family, relationships, politics, and back to books. If men were present, the conversations would be different - not necessarily worse, just different. But we're not expecting girlie conversations to be protected by equality law, and we don't tend to hold those conversations in the toilet. That would be weird.

Does that cover it all?

I do believe you. You seem not to believe me.

Men commit 98% of sexual assaults on women. Removing men statistically reduces the risk to women. And excluding men this makes women safer.

I’m sorry you were badly treated by women but the answer isn’t to disbelieve me or roll back protections that make spaces safer for women.

98% of those 98% were likely enabled and ar still.supported by women. I see people as unsafe.

It is safety, but it's also separation (from men, not trans people, obvs).

I don't want to be partially naked near men I don't know, where I haven't consented to them seeing private parts of my body. It's like trans activists can't hear me when I say this because they simply can't get their head around the idea of women having preferences that should be honoured.

I am lucky enough never to have been seriously sexually assaulted and not to adhere to a restrictive religion. I don't 'need' single sex spaces. But I want them. More than that, I demand them. And I have a right to do so, because what women want matters.

I'm sorry to hear that. Not everyone sees the world in the same way you do. Some of us prefer single sex spaces. Luckily the law agrees with us

I have never said we don't need single sex spaces, I just said that I dont see them as particularly safe. And the other person alleged that a woman cannot rape her. I am saying that you wouldn't feel better that it doesnt meet the legal definition of rape if a woman was to sexually assault her. Of course a woman can overpower you and sexually assaulted you. She just needs to be stronger and scarier than you.

And you’re entitled to your opinion and view which is informed by your trauma. And I’m sorry about that.

but the answer isn’t to allow men into single sex spaces. That makes women’s spaces more dangerous for everyone, you included.

Why shouldn't other women be allowed to feel safe/safer in a male-free environment because you don't feel safer in that environment? If mixed or male free is all the same to you?

If you dont realise that many of the worst men have female enablers and supporters, then you are separated from reality

Do you understand that if you eliminate the perpetrator from the space, the risk goes with them?

Legally, in law, a woman cannot rape. In the U.K. the definition rests upon having a penis.

I am genuinely sorry for what you experienced and my heart breaks for you, but the answer isn’t to allow men into women’s spaces. How will that make the spaces safer?

Nobody said it is. My bafflement is at the idea that women feel automatically safe around other women. Especially naked.