Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

Lol, varying hugely is irrelevant to on average behaviours.

Still not answering me I see @Howseitgoin I’m still here. Waiting patiently.

You still haven't explained how someone who has a male body and exhibits stereotypically male behaviour can be a woman.

This just goes to show the success that the transgender ideological project has had over the past couple decades in convincing people of absolute bullshit.

Um you are confusing fact with feelings. The sexes sharing personality traits is scientifically uncontroversial.

As far as managing sports goes most major sporting organisations have or are in the process of changing the rules so that only trans women who can prove they have no male competitive edge can compete with them which is a fair outcome. In terms of women's spaces, accomodations have been managed in law for countries with strong support.

The OP is in a Facebook group, not an in person group for starters.

But yes, people do vary, but often share similar characteristics.

We are constantly told that trans women are not threat, like they are the best of humanity - men but with the bad male bits removed, women with all the positive characteristics that suggests, like not committing sex crimes.

And it just isn't true. Trans women still behave like men. The only typically female stuff they do is wearing the clothes and make up and trying to use our services.

They still offend. They can still be violent. They take pics of themselves in bedrooms that resemble hovels - their idea of feminine behaviour doesn't seem to include cleaning up, that's for sure.

As I said I'm super feminine & posses personality traits & behaviours more common in women but some of my 'interests' are male coded. On balance my personality is more female associated.

So it's an on balance thing & values dependant in terms of what weight a person places on a trait/s that makes them defining.

Can I just ask @Anchorage56 did you not understand what I was saying? Are you going to blame that on me being autistic too?

I am open about being a victim of a violent rape and sexual assault.

I thought what I’d written to @Howseitgoin was clear. Can you please tell me what you didn’t understand?

Dresses and skirts make rape easier by virtue of the fact that they can be just lifted up.

What about that don’t you understand? Because to be honest I found your question staggering given that I described my rape in response to a question you aggressively put to me. And told me to - and I quote - get over it.

As do some women. See Rosemary West.

Considering women and men to be defined by sets of personality traits and interests is just sexism.

But you don't need to challenge the association trans women have with women to achieve this. Acknowledging the association & wanting to mitigate competing rights isn't mutually exclusive. We can (& have) manage sports, gender affirming care & private spaces. The legitimacy of trans women doesn't delegitimise the gender critical cause & yet its deemed necessary to delegitimise them & tacitly support their dehumanisation & demonisation.

Is this descent into irrationality 'manufactured'? In my view its a case of doth protest to much IE there's something underlying the over reaction that's personality driven. The type of person who is more likely to engage in transference under certain environmental stressors perhaps?

Sorry mate but this is total DARVO.

Female people, and men with a projected "commonality of mind". Two different groups. Both valid, but not the same and it does a disserve to female people to pretend they are because it requires us to pretend a huge chunk of what we experience, how we know ourselves and how we live our lives doesn't happen.

Saying "No you are not women" is not tacitly supporting their dehumanisation & demonisation. It's just saying no. Trans women are human. Trans women are not demons. They just aren't women in the original sense of the word, and the lengths you have to go to to redefine and mansplain what it means to be a "woman" to make that word fit male people means it no longer fits the people it originally referred to, and that is not ok.

It is not "manufactured irrationality" to say that as a female person I do not see any reasonable argument to take the reality of being an embodied female human with the cultural history and the social and physical consequences that brings, many of which are outside my control, and smoosh it in with some self-identfied "commonalities" that I do not even feel projected onto me by a man and say "this is all going to come under the name "woman" now"

Tell me, has it ever occurred to you that you may just be wrong?

Is there a particular reason why you've answered the question you wanted to answer rather than the question I actually asked?

How is an aggressive male rapist like Karen White a woman? What female behaviours do you think he was exhibiting when he repeatedly stuck his penis into unconsenting women? And in what way do you think that pig in a wig presents as feminine?

I didn't realise you were the person that I'd had an interaction with yesterday and I don't wish to engage with you, if I had realised that was you I wouldn't have asked you a question. Also I didn't realise you were autistic so please don't start accusing me of laughing at you being autistic!

To expand on this.

If my rapist identified as female would that have meant they didn’t rape me? Would that have meant they didn’t have the necessary appendage for rape? Would it have meant they weren’t bigger and stronger than me and capable of strangling me til I passed out and wet myself and using a hand at my throat to keep me in place? Could they think their way out of being capable of rape?

Not answering the question.

I see.

Go away and stop harassing me. I would not have engaged with you if I had realised who you were!

But none of this "feminine/male coded" stuff is very interesting to anyone else except you. We cannot read peoples minds or examine how their thoughts align with gender stereotypes they were exposed to in their upbringing. What we can see and what matters is what sex they are.

Indeed.

And haven't generations of feminists been fighting against women being defined by reference to these exact same reductive stereotypes?

My user name is on my posts. It’s not my fault you didn’t read it. That is, as the kids say, a you problem.

That's irrelevant, I've asked you to stop so please respect that.

You had posts removed earlier in the thread for how you spoke to Taztoy. The harasser is you.

In what way did I speak to her?

Committing sexusl crimes with / for a male partner, which is the usual situation for female sex offenders. Scratch the surface and it comes back to men. See also Myra Hindley.

So now there’s a side conversation going on involving ME and what was said to me that I’m not allowed to participate in or I’ll be called names, again.

What happened to taking personal responsibility for one’s own mistakes and debating fairly and respectfully? Without insulting people on the grounds of protected characteristics and whilst still respecting the other person’s point of view?

It’s better to keep making the person you don’t allow a right of reply to keep reliving their most traumatic ever event for your entertainment.

got it.

Good luck Flirts. This same discussion has been repeated on multiple threads now for weeks.