Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

I think that we all know the reason why Hows is so desperate to establish that females & transexual males both have a predilection to wear dresses.

Oddly he refuses to answer the question posed by @FlirtsWithRhinos "Forgive me for forgetting, but are you a person of natal female biology or a trans woman?"

Not answering any of my questions @Howseitgoin and victim blaming people like me. It’s really not a great look.

Except that they don't.

Well I think it's sad you would judge the whole population of trans people based on the actions of some more vocal trans people.

You don't wear dresses because of rape?

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, because I don't care what trans people do as long as they stay the fuck out of spaces which are for members of the opposite sex.

I judge the (vast number) of trans people who think they should somehow be an exception to the rules that the rest of society manages to follow, and that their perception of themselves should trump my sex based rights.

As for trans people who don't think that, well, I have no idea whether they exist or not because if they do, they aren't making themselves heard.

Absolutely.

I used to wear dresses, and skirts and elastic waist trousers.

since my rape I don’t.

I thought that was pretty clear in what I said?

I also didn’t used to be gender critical, but since my rape, my need for women’s single sex spaces has increased, and I am now very glad of the clarification of the law by the Supreme Court.

You don't know it's a vast number then, if you don't know whether or not less vocal trans people even exist. Anyway you sound very angry towards them, which I am not, hence you get worked up on this issue and I don't.

The number of trans people who are vocal about it (feeling entitled to invade women's spaces) is vast.

Totally agree, I think if you allow one biological male how can you say no to others

What percentage though? Of the whole trans population

Of course I understand that. I constantly challenge myself and look at it from different perspectives.

I always come to the conclusion that sex is real and has material consequences for women both physically, and, because of patriacial social structures and norms, socially, financially, emotionally and politically.

And in that social environment, recognising the reality of sex and the social and physical consequences that it has for women (original female people) in particular and providing sex specific supports to help us mitigate this, and maintaining sex specific language to allow us to express and make sense of our experiennces while also challenging the beliefs that these gendered behaviours (in both sexes) are natural and can never be changed is the only fair thing to do.

I used to see trans women as great allies. I thought male people whose existence proved that much of what society says is "female" isn't specific to women at all, but just a convention attached to our sex.

The break for me was realising that these men didn't want "woman's" social conventions to be opened up to men as well, they wanted to keep the old social divisions between women and men and turn these into the actual defintiions of women and men, simulateously baking in the exact sexist stereotypes I had hoped they would be our alies in fighting and destroying the language, history, analysis, laws and spaces women need to make sense of what it is to be female outside those stereotypes and our socialisation.

I would love to get back to that possibility, but it cannot happen while trans women do not allow female people to exist in our right with our own language, spaces and protections that are separate from and nothing to do with trans women's social "womanhood".

Why is it so important to you to destroy this? Why do you hate female people so much that you cannot allow us our own existence in law, society and language?

The old conservative trope of: if they see gays they will become gay? Or ''any behaviour I don't agree with was contagious'

The flaw with your logic is that it is self evident is within society tastes & preferences vary huuuugely'. They aren't uniform. As in some women prefer being stay home mothers, some full time working mothers, some both & some don't care for children. Some women prefer uber feminine presentation, some sporty, some conservative, some androgynous & some butch.

All women are biologically female though. That is our sole common denominator.

However those women choose to present, they are still women.

They aren't uniform. As in some women prefer being stay home mothers, some full time working mothers, some both & some don't care for children. Some women prefer uber feminine presentation, some sporty, some conservative, some androgynous & some butch.

Yes! You are finally seeing it!

All these people have in common is the fact they have female biolog y and deal with the physical and social consequences of that.

We are not socialised exactly the same way, but we all have to deal with finding ourselves within that nexus of the images of womanhood we grow up with, the social pressures we face and the reality of our bodies in that.

So, given that you now admit that there is a huge variety among women to the degree that the only thing women in given society have in common is to be of the female sex in a certain time and place and deal with the social consequences of that, would you like to go back and rethink your statements about "commonalities" between women?

Because you've pretty much undone your own argument now 😂

That assumes that trans women are all lovely, and they are not. They might even be lovely, but still acting with male entitlement, which they can't help because they were socialised male. All the trans women i have ever encountered are big and take up the space in a way women tend not to. They can't apevthe way we women were socialised to use space in a less dominant way. And for me this is one of the main reasons we need women's groups. Plus this one might be nice, the next one not so. But the precedent has been set.

The post you are replying to was spectacularly insensitive and ignorant. Don't feel that you have to respond to that kind of arseholery. Sending love and hugs.

Thank you. Of course I’ve now just noticed the mistake - I meant to say scratched. Not searched.

"And in that social environment, recognising the reality of sex and the social and physical consequences that it has for women (original female people) in particular and providing sex specific supports to help us mitigate this, and maintaining sex specific language to allow us to express and make sense of our experiennces while also challenging the beliefs that these gendered behaviours (in both sexes) are natural and can never be changed is the only fair thing to do."

But you don't need to challenge the association trans women have with women to achieve this. Acknowledging the association & wanting to mitigate competing rights isn't mutually exclusive. We can (& have) manage sports, gender affirming care & private spaces. The legitimacy of trans women doesn't delegitimise the gender critical cause & yet its deemed necessary to delegitimise them & tacitly support their dehumanisation & demonisation.

Is this descent into irrationality 'manufactured'? In my view its a case of doth protest to much IE there's something underlying the over reaction that's personality driven. The type of person who is more likely to engage in transference under certain environmental stressors perhaps?

"The break for me was realising that these men didn't want "woman's" social conventions to be opened up to men as well, they wanted to keep the old social divisions between women and men and turn these into the actual defintiions of women and men, simulateously baking in the exact sexist stereotypes I had hoped they would be our alies in fighting and destroying the language, history, analysis, laws and spaces women need to make sense of what it is to be female outside those stereotypes and our socialisation."

You could make the same accusation about women who revel in sexist stereotypes. But they are just hapless 'robots' & men 'know what they are doing'? How do you square strong independent career women who hate babies, dominate their husbands but enjoy high heels & makeup? Please.

"I would love to get back to that possibility, but it cannot happen while trans women do not allow female people to exist in our right with our own language, spaces and protections that are separate from and nothing to do with trans women's social "womanhood"."

Unless the biological nature of man/woman changes there's no chance of that.

Yeah well the OP's group beg to differ. Individuals vary, who would’ve thought?

But you don't need to challenge the association trans women have with women to achieve this. Acknowledging the association & wanting to mitigate competing rights isn't mutually exclusive. We can (& have) manage sports, gender affirming care & private spaces. The legitimacy of trans women doesn't delegitimise the gender critical cause & yet its deemed necessary to delegitimise them & tacitly support their dehumanisation & demonisation.

Can you explain what you mean by this in plain English?

I don't care if trans identifying men feel they have an association with women. I don't feel I have any association whatsoever with trans identifying men but their feelings are their own and they are entitled to them.

How do you suggest we manage sports and single sex spaces? How do you actually resolve the conflict between trans identifying men wanting to be in women's spaces and sports, and women not wanting trans identifying men in women's spaces and sports? Because there has to be a winner and a loser. They can't both win.

Irrelevant to the discussion of psychological commonality.

Discussion of psychological commonality is irrelevant to the law in the U.K.

I. Don't. Fucking. HAVE. Any. Psychological. Commonality. With. Trans. Identifying. Men.

I have nothing in common with them whatsoever that I don't also have in common with all men, namely, being human.