Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

I think you should ask a number of men friends you know to apply to join. If they are rejected, it puts the group at odds with the Supreme Court judgment. I'm not suggesting that anyone should launch a legal challenge but it would start a debate within the group, hopefully peak a few women and force the trans allies to defend their illogical and illegal position.

So you think that a man's feelings matter more than anyone else's - the women's group now exists primarily to offer him female friendship opportunities? What about the women who want a women only group? This matters to many women and it is legal. What isn't legal is to say you are a women only group then decide to let some men in and not others.

OP says they have been welcomed with open arms 🤷‍♀️ OP says herself she believes in live and let live but just isnt sure about how fair it was that a man was refused. She hasnt mentioned anyone being upset.

I absolutely support “live and let live” approach and that’s why I don’t mind if men have “men only “ groups on FB. I don’t ask to join them.
I think for fairness you have to stick to “women only” from EA point of view. Ime many women who do mind and for whom it matters often are shy and quiet and they won’t be comfortable to raise this issue openly. These women have chosen your “women only” FB group for a reason, so don’t let them down now but changing goalposts.
And the vote to let in a man doesn’t make sense for me if you are women only group.

I think in this situation, where maybe you aren’t really fired up, you could raise it as a point of discussion. Could the group be in trouble for discriminating against one man, but not another?
At least then the group don’t sit there thinking everyone is going along with it with open arms.

What a weird post. Obviously transmen are women so would be welcomed.

As they've welcomed him so enthusiastically I suspect that would immediately lead to calls of "but Bertha isn't a man!" and OP getting asked to leave.

This.

3 weeks after 10 years 🤣 what a strong friendship group that was!

You can't use "being upset" as a bench mark. How upset counts? What if you are unable to say you are upset? What if a small group is welcoming but the others are quiet on the subject? This is why you have rules. And the Supreme Court judgement is that you either make it single sex or for everyone but you can't include a trans identifying man and exclude other men.

I’m in a Fb book group that’s predominantly women as it’s mostly romance, we welcome men in if they read what we read. It’s Fb, why wouldn’t they just have let those first men in if they’ve the same interests

All I said was that it wouldnt bother me. Making friends as adults can be hard and I can imagine making friends when you are trans would be 100x more difficult as you will always come across people who wouldn't accept you simply based on that, no matter how funny or nice or friendly you were. So the way I look at life is I would accept them into the group as I'd understand they were trying to make female friends and wishing to hang out in that environment and only judge them on how they behave. If they were an arsehole I'd wish they had never joined, but that would be the same if they were biologically female.

Breaking equality law I suspect - all men or none

strange how some people react isn’t it ?

If one man is let in, then its not on to not let another man in.

I'd leave and set up another group that is for adult females only.

Maybe, or maybe people might agree, or think about it a bit. Everyone already knows Bertha is a man, so I doubt there would be a chorus of ‘what do you mean? What other man? There are no men in this group!’
I think it’s worth raising as a discussion point, as devils advocate. It’s sticky though if you aren’t that bothered and want to stay in the group, but you have concerns about fairness and hypocrisy.
Yet again it feels like women can’t talk about what they want, men must approve, even in a women’s only group, you can’t talk about what you want.

"So the way I look at life is I would accept them into the group as I'd understand they were trying to make female friends and wishing to hang out in that environment"

This would make them no different to the male person who the group rejected previously though.

So if you joined a women’s group and a man who didn’t claim to be a woman joined because he wanted some women friends, you’d be ok with that?

Women aren’t there to provide support to TiMs.

There must be endless numbers of groups that accept TiMs considering the amount of posters on MN who say they are happy to share private spaces with them, so there should be no need for them to invade women only groups.

Not necessarily. Even though a trans man is biologically female, if she looks very much like a man and exhibits certain stereotypical male behaviours, she might not be welcomed with open arms. Wasn't that the point of being able to exclude some transmen from womens single sex spaces?

Well again personally speaking I wouldnt understand why a man would want to join a woman's group. But like I just said I can understand why a trans woman would. I can see the difference.

If the non trans man is genuinely interested in the subject matter of the group he cannot be permitted to join? But the trans identifying male can join? Why?

For me I can see a difference. If you identify as female and wish female friends then I can see why you would join a women's group. If you are a biological man and dont wish to be a woman then I dont know why you would join a womans only group as you would know you arent a woman. I wouldnt join a man's only club. I might still wish to make male friends but I wouldnt join a man's only club in order to do that.

Why does that need explaining. Surely it's obvious. I've also explained my opinion upthread.

But the TW/TIM joining changes the group from single sex to mixed sex.
That isn't fair on the women who joined wanting a single sex group.

Your instinct is correct, OP. Practically speaking, your best option is to start another group - if you're the leader, you can set the rules and explain to anyone who joins that one thing that will not be up for debate is the women-only rule.
And encourage the first man to try again for membership of the first group since they are now taking men. 😉

I don’t care how you identify because that’s flawed thinking

the space is for females

who Are not females because they identify as such but because of a cruel twist of fate that sees them tied to female biology and a patriarchal misogynistic society

see if it was a group for people who identify as female then a transwomen should be welcome
but its for females however they identify

there are various reasons transowmen want to be part of female only groups and only some of those reasons are valid

the evidence is that transowomen are as sexually obsessed and patriarchal in nature any other man