Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

I'm super feminine

😂

sure

I’m not super feminine.

does that mean I’m a man?

What are the super powers of the super feminine? Maybe @Howseitgoin will enlighten us?

Don’t hold your breath. I’ve been trying to get them to answer me.

and bear in mind, if you address them directly, and they answer you and you follow up they might - even though your name is on your posts clearly - if they haven’t noticed that it’s you because if they had they wouldn’t have engaged - they’ll make out that’ll be your fault and they’ll say you’re harassing them by answering the posts they made to you.

So you are a male person who is ‘super feminine’ and believes that their interests are on balance more in common with women, so that is why you say you are a woman?

Because you followed it up with :

“So it's an on balance thing & values dependant in terms of what weight a person places on a trait/s that makes them defining.”

You see, female people who have reached maturity don’t have to balance anything. They are women whether their interests are ‘on balance’ more in common with female people than male people. I work in a male dominant industry, I don’t present ‘feminine’, I have interests that are not ‘on balance’ most common with women.

I don’t have to justify my existence as a woman at all. I just am because I have a body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of the production status of large gametes and I reached maturity. Thank you for clarifying though.

I think it means you can join men’s groups and discuss prostate issues because you aren’t feminine enough for women’s groups.
Theres a mysterious sorting hat that tells you if you are feminine or masculine enough.

To be fair I love a good hat.

I know. But it's still worth saying even if Howie is only pretending to be here in good faith.

Yeah, I’m glad there are women here stating and restating the logical arguments against this ‘on balance I’m a woman’ bullshit

I salute your patience

Oh Jesus. I just saw this. For some reason I thought your experience was much longer ago. Not that how long ago it was makes a difference to how important it is, but to have that happen to you while this public debate over what safety measures is it reasonable for women to expect from society is going on must make it so personal. I'm so sorry.

It was January this year. It’s not even been to court yet.

And thank you @FlirtsWithRhinos for being so understanding.

I know my view seems simplistic. But. The law says no. And I say no. I’m legally allowed to. What about that is problematic? It’s a consent violation for men to come into women’s spaces where they aren’t legally allowed. In exactly the same way as it’s a consent violation for a man to insert his penis into me without my consent, which means he’s not legally allowed to put it there.

Why is one ok and the other not ok?

To me, if we (as a society in the U.K.) weaken same sex provisions we weaken all protections that stand on consent.

LOL, so your argument is:

1. Female people of any social behaviours and preferences, "average" for women or not, are all still women
2. Male people who exhibit social behaviours and preferences considered "average" for women are also women.

And bang, just like that your entire argument for why trans women are women is undone.

Because if female people of any social behaviours and preferences, "average" for women or not, are all still women, then male people of any social behaviours and preferences, "average" for men or not, are all still men.

You can't have it both ways.

The reason you fell into this error is of course because you have never had any rational model for trans women's womanhood in the first place.

Because it didn't start with logic, facts and rationality, it started with desire, and demand, and projection. Everything that came after is just trans women's retconning to justify why what they want for irrational and emotional reasons is something they have a right to be given.

Um you are confusing fact with feelings. The sexes sharing personality traits is scientifically uncontroversial.

You misspelled "misogynistic bollocks".

And you still haven't explained what personality traits I share with Karen White.

As far as managing sports goes most major sporting organisations have or are in the process of changing the rules so that only trans women who can prove they have no male competitive edge can compete with them which is a fair outcome.

All trans identifying men have a male competitive advantage. Because they are male.

In terms of women's spaces, accomodations have been managed in law for countries with strong support.

No idea what this word salad is supposed to mean.

But also:

1. Male people who exhibit social behaviours considered average for men are also women if they say they are.

You are a man & don't have a clue what being a woman entails even if you imagine you conform to some sexist stereotype of feminine behaviour.

It’s probably years of saying the same thing every day with great patience.
You can’t identify out of needing to brush your teeth and go to bed either.

@Anchorage56 thank you for trying to explain your position and continuing to answer queries on it. Can I ask how you would feel if the man who asked to join and was refused now said actually I’m going to call myself Betty and wear lipstick would you then change your mind and allow him to join?

If he turned around and said that directly after being refused as a man, no I would know fine well he wasn't serious and just chancing it or trying to make a point. So I wouldn't feel bad if he was refused again

What if he said it the day after? Or after a month? What changes? He's still the same person. You still don't know his motives.

And yet men say they are women all the time to gain access to places they shouldn't be.

I wouldn't take him seriously after a day or a month.

Some do yes. I don't care about that in relation to a friendship group I'm part of.

And if it’s a women’s group either you admit all men or you tell him he’s not allowed in because he’s male. That’s the law.

The Equality Act isn't interested in your friendship groups.