Women's 'Private Spaces'

[Howseitgoin]

Clearly private spaces for women are considered a necessity by many due to a propensity for male sexual violence. Given this threat is much greater by orders of magnitude in the work place as opposed to public bathrooms, isn't it inconsistent not to demand private spaces there as well?
Thoughts?

And where is your evidence that all males that say they are female score in a statistically female” way in all these categories?

Where is your data?

Or is it just what you believe? That all trans identified males are gentle, kind, empathetic souls?

That’s not been my experience. Mainly on the autism spectrum and exhibiting at least some degree of black and white thinking, and aggressive behaviour if you don’t comply with their belief. And some frankly fetishistic exhibitionism in some. I have not met one that I thought had a “female soul”.

The thing is, as you correctly identify here back at the beginning of your thread, sexual harassment is a big problem for women and girls. It sometimes starts when we are very young. It takes a toll on many of us. That’s why we don’t want any men or boys over a certain age at all in women’s spaces.

Here's the kind of womanly woman that the OP insists is a woman and must be alongside girls and women undressing. Never forget that these are the men the OP wants to wedge into women's single sex spaces - and there are an alarming number of them:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5388328-5388328-another-perverted-woman?reply=146705607

Do penguins all have the same personality though? I doubt it.

There is nothing in this. Inner gender is not a real thing.

There is no “essence of penguinness” there is no “inner essence of woman”.

Maybe we need a reminder.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

No amount of sexist stereotypical behaviour will increase the chance of the impossibility that a male person is ever going to be a female person.

After reading a few TRA twitter accounts that twist absolutely everything to the point that the truth has been wrung out, I'm very much aware of the utter bollocks that is produced by them.

It doesn't matter how much drivel or sexist, anti-safeguarding, incelist nonsense I read I still find it shocks me how far gone some are.

It is cultlike extremist, and truly through the looking glass stuff.

When you are arguing about self determination as a human rights but forget murderers still aren't allowed to murder even though they want to, migrants aren't just allowed to declare themselves another nationality without due process and approval, religious extremists don't get to dictate the law and imprison people for not believing.

And then you prattle on about the tyranny of the majority you really do not understand anything.

Dictating without social consensus in a democracy is not 'protecting minorities'. Human Rights ALWAYS examine harms first and balancing competing needs.

When you won't even acknowledge that biological women have rights that much be taken into account and balanced, it's easy to demand rights left right and centre. All you show is how much of an incel movement this is. And that's the crux of it and the entire premise of this lengthy thread.

One of the features of this transcelism is trying to look intellectual and educated by using phrases that seem legal (human rights), sound politically progressive (it's just like gay rights), sound scientifically coherent (when you take hormones you become female cos there's lots of studies that say this).

It's all nothing more than hot air and propaganda and it's cheerleaders will argue black is white no matter what because part of it is about trying to grind people into submission by intimidation and sheer dogged persistence. Give enough bollocks and even people in power will repeat it, because it's easier than making the counter argument, continually having to engage and maintain an appearance of fairness. It's simply too much like hard work to deal with the nonsense. It's the toddler who asked for ice cream until mum gives in because she can't take the screaming anymore.

It's all about winning and power and control rather than actually having anything worthwhile to say.

When it comes down to it, the following phrase applies: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

The answer is the same as always, and the same as when a now slightly older small child (who has graduated from toddler hood) starts to apply stupid logic to something to argue the toss about why the ice cream isn't enough and they should have six toys, bottomless coke, go to the cinema AND have a pony otherwise you are a terrible parent who doesn't really love them and all their friends are allowed to.

"No."

This is incelism and we won't indulge it.

All this just just to argue women must share prisons cells, changing rooms, refugees, hostel rooms, uni dorms, therapy groups, toilets and other services with male people who at best have no empathy and no respect for women and at worst are sex offenders.

Interruptaron.

If the slogan was trans women were more like women than men behaviourally' instead on 'trans women are women' would it be so upsetting?

Still sounds sexist, but what are these behaviours? I don’t think you have listed them - did anyone else see the relevant post?

Thank you!

We have to stay tethered to reality, or we lose all ability to make reasoned deductions.

I don’t think we can reason OP out of an irrational religious type conviction. OP has fully demonstrated they can’t do reasoning. Just non-sequiturs and emotional flannel.

Coming back to this article, as I said before it is four years out of date and predates the Supreme Court judgment. It is also only a High Court judgment, so it has now been conclusively overruled by a superior court and High Court judges would no longer have the ability to reach this decision.

With the benefit of the Supreme Court judgment, it is clear that this decision is wronger than a wrong thing what used to be professor of being wrong at Oxford University.

"It is not possible to argue that the defendant should have excluded from women's prisons all transgender women."

❌ WRONG. The law actually requires that they are excluded from women's prisons. Because they are men.

"Schedule 3 is discretionary."

❌ WRONG. A women's prison is a female only space therefore correctly applying the single sex exemption is not optional.

But even without the benefit of the legal clarity that we now have, the judges' findings were shocking.

They acknowledge that housing trans identifying male prisoners in women's prisons increases the risk of harm to female inmates. They acknowledge that female inmates will suffer "fear and anxiety" as a result of being incarcerated with trans identifying male prisoners. They claim that existing policies should mitigate this despite the fact that the claimant was actually sexually assaulted by a trans identifying male inmate and so the existing policies clearly failed to protect her. They knew that in a three year period at least seven sexual assaults were committed by trans identifying male prisoners in women's prisons, meaning that between 1 in 5 (if all the assaults were committed by different people) and 1 in 20 (if all the assaults were committed by the same person) of the trans identifying males housed in women's prisons actually went on to sexually assault a female inmate. And then these two privileged white male judges went on to dismiss all of that on the grounds that housing these male criminals in the men's prisons where they belong "would be to ignore, impermissibly, the rights of transgender women to live in their chosen gender".

Let's be very clear about this.

There is no right for trans people to be in spaces for members of the opposite sex. Such a right does not exist and never has. For a time those people were granted the special privilege of being allowed in spaces for members of the opposite sex, but that privilege came at the expense of the actual rights of the opposite sex and never should have been granted, even to nice, law abiding trans people.

But when it comes to convicted criminals, well, they are denied many rights which the rest of us enjoy. They have no right to vote. They have no right to walk around freely. They have no right to decide what to wear or eat that day. They forfeited those rights when they decided to commit a serious crime, incurring a custodial sentence.

Like actual fucking fuck do we need to give even the slightest, shiniest shit about the gender identities of convicted criminals. For actual fucking fuck's sake.

If being housed in a men's prison would be so very intolerable for you because you believe you are a woman despite all the evidence to the contrary, the solution is actually very simple. Refrain from sticking your penis into unconsenting women (or any other criminal activities) and then you won't get sent to any kind of prison.

All men are safer from harm from women than they are from other men. So wouldn't your logic dictate that all men who wanted to feel safer should be permitted to use women's facilities? And all men who felt they had more in common in terms of their behaviour with women also? So, basically any man who wants to? Or are you arguing there should be no single sex spaces at all? Which your OP suggested, yet seems to contradict your view TW need to access women's single sex spaces to feel safer.

Here is it ... the wheedling part:

'I think that the whole conflict with this issue is how its framed.'

'If the slogan was 'trans women were more like women than men behaviourally' instead on 'trans women are women' would it be so upsetting?'

Can women accept a different framing? Would using these words instead make it more acceptable? Can we just agree to this sub group who 'behave' like the sexist stereotypes that those male people have determined are how 'women' act?

gosh... remember who else relied on 'framing' for achieving their political aim.

"Sexual violence happens to bigoted people too. But if you bring beliefs that are discriminatory, expect to be challenged on your prejudice. Reframe your trauma" - Wadhwa 2021

If Brian from accounts is a sleazy perv who is saying or doing anything that is sexual harassment when we are working in the office together I can speak to HR and describe what he did/ said.

If 'Brian' is coming into the female toilet or changing room and quietly getting off on seeing me in a state of undress or hearing me use the bathroom or just getting off on knowing his presence makes me feel vulnerable or violated, there is nothing I can do if he is
allowed to be there.

Men claiming to be extra vulnerable and appealing to women to help is making me think of feigned helplessness.

It's not up to women to justify anything.

It's up to TRAs to make the case that reality isn't real.

That's why they will say and argue anything because there is no substance to argue, so they have to clutch at all the straws.

OP is saying that women only spaces cannot be demanded, and do not offer safety.

But men need these spaces because of the safety they provide.

This makes sense because everything else has been debunked and statistics.

more like women than men behaviourally

Looked back to see what those feminine female behavioural traits are meant to be that makes TW women. See that they are…

An expression of Big five personality traits of Agreeableness & Neuroticism (sensitivity) more common in women. IE A more feminine temperament. Inclinations towards & expressions of feminine attire/presentation. Interests in pursuits more common to women like caring professions/pursuits & female consumerism. I could go on & on.

So women are the humans that like to shop, wear sexy dresses and makeup, are nurses not doctors, and are always soft spoken and endlessly kind to children and animals?

Also see that the mention of the Big Five personality traits included a reference (reminded me of James Damore’s reference to ‘research’).

The study sample includes Participants (N = 2643; 892 male, 1751 female) were drawn from a number of research projects, for which they received either monetary compensation or university course credit. Much of the data was collected in a large Canadian metropolitan area, either as an online survey or as a part of laboratory studies (N = 1826; 537 male, 1289 female).

Hmm, not a sample I’d hazard is representative, but surely most women would conclude that this finding is downright offensive:

Women scored higher than men on Enthusiasm, Compassion, Politeness, Orderliness, Volatility, Withdrawal, and Openness. Men scored higher than women on Assertiveness and Intellect.

My response to be characterised by these ‘researchers’…? No thank you.

This thread is a mindfuck. I am both laughing because of the inanity, but I am horrified that someone can really come out with this blatant misogyny and think that it is grounded in fact and reason.

However, there are people who are not posting who are reading bits of it. As I said to the OP, their untethered posting was keeping this thread up in the trending list.

Howseitgoin · Today 03:58
Yes, Einstein, and the reason Katie Dolatowski was able to get a ten year old girl on her own is because he was allowed to use the women's toilets.
Lol, seriously. 'the permission made isolation magically appear'🤪

This is the "winning" argument

Little girls are N+1

When the man is put into prison

Women being raped by male inmates while in the control of the State are N+1

The curtain of Oz

Seems very unnecessarily nit picky to me…

"Transwoman are women. Stop talking about chromosomes, patterns of behaviour and penises and all the other material reality inconvenient truth stuff. It's unnecessarily nit picky because it doesn't suit my argument. Therefore it's unfair and unjust. In Australia they treat transwomen so much better, so you should all do what Australia does because I say so. You hate me. Why do you hate me so much? Waaaaaahhhhh".

Add stompy foot for full dramatic effect.

Erm.

No.

Yes, I read this and immediately thought that only an incel or extreme MRA would consider this a good support for their argument.

However, considering the rest of the evidence, I am vacillating between OP being a feminist plant and being deliberately offensive, and OP just being the bog standard extreme activist for men's rights.

But also highlights the damage done by unthinking #bekind / misogynistic journalists as many of these op-Ed sources have been offered as ‘evidence’. The Guardian is quite popular in Australia…

Women scored higher than men on Enthusiasm, Compassion, Politeness, Orderliness, Volatility, Withdrawal, and Openness. Men scored higher than women on Assertiveness and Intellect.

As demonstrated in this thread?

@Howseitgoin Provide proof of your research

You should be able to answer the N+1 question without any problem.