Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

Sorry what's GC? Thank you

Many accounts on X have the trans pride flag and the Palestinian flag on their profile. It’s been that way for many years, long before Oct 7. Pride marches around the world have been excluding or attempting to exclude Jewish (oh sorry, ‘Zionist’) groups also for years. It’s a bizarre and, on the surface, illogical pairing and it long predates the one you’re talking about. Because the very obvious irony is that the only place in the Middle East where gay and trans people are free to be themselves is Israel.

It was interesting that the op chose the title of the thread is why are so many GC women pro Israel but if that premise is going by that thread on Corbyns new party, it hardly mentions Israel at all.

So is that premise of being pro-Israel based on assumptions that posters using corbyns nickname ‘jezbollah’ were pro Israel? Likewise an assumption anyone concerned or puzzled that the UK has MPs for Gaza must be pro-Israel? I didn’t read every single post but I did not see posts making sweeping statements about Muslims marrying cousins etc.

First, having feminist concerns about Islam’s conservative views on women does not automatically make someone pro-Israel. Christian conservatism or Orthodox Jewish tenets are equally concerning for women. Not to mention that being supportive of Israel as a country does not automatically mean being supportive of Netanyahu’s government or what they’re doing to the Palestinian people. Do you condemn all Russians for Putin’s assault on Ukraine?

So @Krakinou what are your real concerns here?

doesn't mean GC=Pro Israel (and I don't know that's what the OP was saying) That’s literally the title of the thread, but if that’s not what the OP’s saying, it’d be good to have clarification.

No, I can't say I have seen this at all.

Do you have any examples?

For me it is not about being 'anti Muslim' or 'anti Gaza', but rather anti Hamas and supportive of Israel as a sovereign country with a right to exist. Hamas is a murderous, extremely religious terror organisation that is devoted to killing all jews and to the total destruction of Israel. The atrocities that were committed on October 7th 2023 were predicated on total hatred and dehumanisation.
Israel with drew from Gaza entirely in 2006........what did the people in Gaza do.....they elected Hamas, rather than seek to build up a viable state....and Hamas built tunnels and enriched its leaders using international aid money, whilst it plotted Israel's destruction.

I think women who have struggled for years with the trans/gender ideology movement have come to give a lot of thought to issues around boundaries and borders and to the discrete rights of different groups and how to accommodate the needs of different groups. Israel exists and it is a modern, democratic country in which all citizens have the vote and equal rights ( including the 20% of the population that is Arab - muslim). Palestinian leadership, over the decades, have consistently turned down proposals for a two state solution.

All of the calls of 'From the river to the sea' are calling for the destruction of Israel. Unfortunately there are now a group of religious hard-liners in Israel too...who simply don't believe that a two state solution is ever possible, or even desirable. This will have to be dealt with very firmly going forward but is one of the consequneces of this interminable saga.

For many on the extreme Left Israel has long been central to their political ideology....with its anti westernism and anti capitalism etc more generally. Beneath that there does lie a seam of anti semitism, regardless of what many will say to the contrary Jewish people and capitalism have long been associated on a subliminal level; and scratch the surface you often discover tropes about the Rothschilds and about sinister jewish conspiracies.

For many of us who used to identify with the Left there has come a profound re-assessment in the light of the way that the Left/'progressives' have become subsumed in the politics of identity and victimisation....and at the expense of the dignity,integrity and protections of women and girls. Many have come to adhere more to a pragmatic, realistic politics that recognises that it is not so much about airy ideals and individual freedoms so much as working to accommodate and balance competing needs and desires.

Israel is a secular country not a religious theocracy...even if it is supportive of Judaism and its practices. Not every Israeli is religious, and many jewish citizens are culturally jewish rather than religiously observant. Arabs and muslims have seats in the knesset and are occupy all positions and roles in Israeli society.

There are also lots of right wing groups that are anti semitic.

You are confusing the people of Palestine with Hamas

I totally agree with you OP, there is a notable Gc/ pro Zionism thing going on and I find it really depressing. I don’t believe in God. I think the forced teaming for the other side led many to this.

The 'team view' of much of the left is relentlessly, automatically and uncritically anti Israel and always has been.

There is only one nominally jewish state, meanwhile there are many multiples of Muslim or Islamic states or Christian states. Zionism is simply holding to a feeling for a jewish homeland in which jewish people can be free of the sorts of state persecution they have been subject to for millenia.

Israel is not a religious country, it is a secular democracy but one which is jewish supportive.

Have you been looking on twitter, the most polarized platform there is? We can all agree on some things. I agree with Nigel Garage that HS2 shouldn't have been started but we come at it from different angles and there isn't much else, if anything, we agree on. But a lot of people are tribal and go along with things without thinking for themselves. That's why we are where we are with trans and women's rights.

I am pro-Israel (but furious about the continued bombardment of Gaza, which I lay mostly to the blame of Hamas but also to Netanyahu) for two reasons. The first is the holocaust of 7th Oct 23 when Israeli women and children were subjected to horrific abuse and murder by Hamas and their fellow-travellers and also by 'ordinary' Gazans who cheered the display of those women's bodies through Gaza. Secondly, I see Israel as the first line of defence of the West and its civilization - I am a socialist but social conservative, if that helps explain my stance, and I am also in favour of the Enlightenment settlement in Europe.
I am appalled - as are many - by the condemnation of Israel in the wake of 7th October, rather than Hamas and Gazans. I am also appalled by the number of women who deny that rape and murder took place in Israel on 7th Oct - note that the UN has now accepted that this did take place and that Hamas is culpable.
So, I stand with Israel and want the release of the hostages, living and dead. I am aware it is not a popular position to hold, but then I am a GR rad fem, so I know about holding unpopular beliefs (and holding my tongue on them, too).

Hamas is the elected and overwhelmingly supported government of Palestine. The members of Hamas are Palestinian people.

I was recently in earshot of a pro Palestinian rally in Manchester. I am generally horrified at the amount of destruction and killing and violence by Israeli military against the people of Gaza, but listening to that rally put me right off the political activism about this issue in uk.
Speaker was saying LGBTQ+ community were automatically allies so palestinian supporters should support them too. This surprised me because I thought surely there would be a range of opinions amongst gay & trans people , same as any other people. Surely some people in that community have links to Israel. Also why should someone who supports Palestine automatically want to support LGBTQ+ issues. It's completely separate.

But to say that everyone in Palestine supports what Hamas have done is over simplifying. That's like saying every Jew supports Netanyahu or every Irish person supported the atrocities carries out in "the troubles".

The people of Palestine, i.e. Gazans in this instance, cheered to see the bodies of murdered women on 7th Oct. Some ordinary Gazans took part in the rapes and murders, too.
I know that Gazans who do not back Hamas have to stay quiet or be killed. Some did dare to speak out earlier in the war - I hope that they were given refuge before Hamas murdered them.

From my understanding Hamas were elected only once and 50% of the population of Gaza were not born until after the election.

Therefore it is impossible to say whether if they allowed elections to continue they would still be in power. It’s obvious to us that they are an extreme political entity, however it maybe difficult for the people who have only lived under their rule to be able to be objective and feel safe to express opposition.

You've picked one comment and extrapolated a trend.

The idea of sex being a spectrum, imagined, real or important, and any other issue being linked needs a more reliable source than you reading threads.

Similarly, being sceptical of british politicians priorities, and views of complex international conflicts isnt as simple as you appear to think it is.

But this is where feminism as a movement always shoots itself in the foot - being forced to take sides in other causes means that women refuse to work with each other on feminism. And justify this by claiming a view point is right wing or anti feminism.

Something, something, ‘woke’, etc., …

Ok, I'll bite.
There are a few things that might make it seem this way:
The Jeremy Corbyn bunch that are both anti Semitic and anti women: some people who are GC have also seen how horrendous he is on Israel.
The educated Jewish women journalists who talk sense (Hadley Freeman, Nicole Lambert). Those who are educated Muslim GC women (Onjali Rauf for one) are pro human rights but that doesn't mean anti Israel.

And the horrendous stance on women's rights and gay rights by Hamas. This just makes the anti Israel demonstrators with blue hair look uninformed.

I don't see any of these people as pro Israeli government, just anti Hamas, though.

I mean, I saw the footage of ordinary Palestinians cheering the October 7th terrorist atrocity so 🤷🏽‍♀️. It reminded me of the red hands attack, that wasn't Hamas either. Netanyahu is not Hamas, that is a shameful comparison. Would it make people happier if Israel took down its defences and let Palestine win the war it started?

it's an unfortunate side effect of the "omnicause".

If you have Men in dresses, Palestine and Welcome Refugees grouped on one side

You get women's sex based rights, support of Israel and anti refugee status on the other side.

I despise the polarising media boxes we are algorithmically shoved into.

Between 1 in 6 and 1 in 10 Palestinians is a Hamas fighter. Given Palestinian soldiers are almost all men, you’d be hard pressed to find a family that isn’t Hamas.

I'd say most palestinians do support hamas. They all want Jews annihilated too
Let's be honest. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand how ancient and deep the hatred it is.

But still israel should just take down the defenses and let them win because they don't have the military capability to win the war they started. Of course they should