NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

@Betheadore - from your AI summary

The argument is less about a specific event and more about differing interpretations of tone, intent, and the boundaries of acceptable discourse in gender-related discussions

Unfortunately, with the prose that we post online, the tone and intent are open to the reader's interpretation. The disagreement does seem to have escalated to pretty offensive name-calling very quickly though.

Agreed, it would have been right to know earlier that Boswell's output was based on an AI summary. In their (his?) defense, both the summary and the AI models used do seem to have been checked before publishing - which is more than some online news sources manage.

Changed emphasis - useful to right. The right thing to do would be to make clear that the summary was AI based

When I was trying to learn Brazilian jiu jitsu it was incredibly tricky to improve unless I was rolling with other women - there was one in my club, she was smaller than me which meant I had a weight advantage - with the guys (unless they were new and panicky and clumsy) they all went so easy on me it meant there was no speed - but they were also incredibly difficult to move. It was like puppies and big dogs. One guy had such long legs it was literally pointless me trying to get out of his guard. I went to train at another gym and the women were brutal there, got the shock of my life after being in a room full of big brothers. (They were pulling some dodgy moves tbh, for a friendly training session, but it woke me up nicely!) One thing they can't do is make themselves lighter - I got very good at slowing my breathing down and not panicking while getting squashed. Defending, hunkering down until I could see a window. But then I'd had so little practice at actually attacking that I would just wing it. 😆

https://www.vinted.co.uk/items/6855085383-national-trust-book-of-scones

Saw this...

Sold 😭

I read a couple of Boswell's "reports". I didn't realise they were supposed to be serious court reports as they read to me as parody and were markedly inaccurate on factual points. If anyone had relied on them for information about the case they would have been seriously misled. I thought the weakly humorous parody was possibly American, but I suppose America is where AI gets most of its information from.

If he intended them to be accurate reports I'm not surprised at the arguments.

NHS Fife refusing to answer questions from press and public: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25382034.nhs-fife-board-block-public-questions-peggie-tribunal/?ref=eb&nid=2261&block=article_block_a&u=d7dd3c2494c5e88f82c8ffa5b8c7f82d&date=120825

From the comments

John McDonald
Have the Fife board not read the Nolan principles?

Reply by John Madden.
The NHS Fife board spoke to their equalities expert Isla Bumba on the matter but she got mixed up and gave them a copy of I'm in the mood for dancing' by The Nolans. They now haven't got a clue what they are doing but are in step with each others dance moves.

That's my ear-worm for the day, then! 😛

Archive version: https://archive.ph/cZ2XJ

They read to me as somewhere between a factual report and a newspaper sketch column. I suppose they were some sort of balance to the BBC's selective reporting, but they were certainly not reliable.

And as someone who plays tennis and is really quite shit, I can confirm that that male advantage starts right from beginners. Middle aged, unfit, beginner men are significantly better than middle aged, unfit, beginner women. They hit harder, have better reach and a stronger grip.

Edited to add - I regularly play mixed social tennis and that’s fun. But when I’m competing in my women’s shit-league, I do not want to be competing against a man.

I thought the comment "Nurse!" was in response to Marcel's nasty 'whore with negative IQ' comment, as in "Nurse, nurse, the nutter has escaped again!"

Not commenting on a doctor being a nurse at all. Then everything spiralled out of all recognition as these things tend to do.

It's perfectly usual for NHS Board meetings to be held in public and open to observers, and for observers to be allowed to watch but without participating. Otherwise they couldn't get on with ordinary business that usually takes 1/2 or a full day.

Some NHS Boards allow questions to be submitted in writing in advance but it would become a circus if they allowed that right now.

I hope the public seating is packed though, and that everyone feels very closely scrutinised. I'd love to be there!

as an online comment (and indeed in real life in days of yore) "Nurse" always meant "bring more stablising and calming medication, this person needs them" aka "you're crazy".

It's been routinely used that way for at least 40 years.

Okay, clear I'm wrong and exceptionally shit at racket sports. Not my area. Carry on.

Edit and my male ex was relatively even shitter, good to know...😂

It's amazing. Whenever I think this tribunal is paused and nothing more will come up til September, NHS Fife manages to dig itself in any even deeper hole...

“Just when i thought i was out. They pull me back in!”

How are you all managing to chat so much...

@NebulouslyContemporaneous I'm on summer holidays. It's hang out in here or do prep for going back next week/clean the house.
PS admiring the username!

I can certainly understand that, @Nessiesfoodprovider ! I am aces at using MN for procrastination.

There is another appeal to these threads, too, that keeps up their momentum between instalments of this shocking tribunal. That is a community feeling. Despite all the name changes that make this a kind of a masquerade ball, it has something of the feeling of an old-style MN thread of 10 or 15 years ago. There's a continuity, rather than the post and run feel of most threads these days.

And I think the fact that we have a common cause, an excellent gripping narrative and well defined characters, not to mention cliffhangers both after pt1 and pt2 - all of that helps.

This feels a fairly safe space, albeit with some masquerade name changes, and you're right, that doesn't happen much in here these days.
I think the article about gender dysphoria is spot on about professionals being worried for their registrations. Questioning the prevailing wind that is GI has become contrary to do many workplace policies that there isn't anywhere safe to express your concerns or any other viewpoint. Let's hope that things like the supreme court ruling, Sandie's tribunal, and others like it, will pave the way for a future world where both GC and GI can coexist, although I'm not sure that's possible.

That really is excellent, as one would expect from her.
I wonder how the True Believers would try to refute what she says.

Having worked in a public sector organisation I don't agree. The appropriate step would be to pick and answer briefly one or two representative questions and direct others to a statement on their website or press office. It just shows them to be even more blinkered and incompetent.

Reading the auditors work on nhs hospitals rules, it seems that anyone working in the nhs has to follow that rule trans women are women and treat them as their identity , it's a brave gender critical person who takes on the management over this issue when all the guidance is stonewall law.

Any member of NHS staff with the audacity to question transgender policies is to be 'educated' and if that fails is likely to be disciplined.