NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

Mixed doubles is explicitly one person from each sex on each side. It’s not “any mixture is fine”, and you can’t enter two men as a team. If you could, every competitive team would have to be two men.

I saw that comment and DU was not dressed as a doctor but in a jumper and skirt . Maybe he was visiting for a meeting.

Interesting article and depressing in that this informed and thoughtful evaluation is not commonly held by psychologists.

To add to the list, I worked in Madagascar where suicide had been almost completely unheard of because of traditions worshipping ancestors. Then French daytime soap operas were introduced as a tv programme with suicide storylines and all of sudden rates of suicide began to climb. Introduce an idea where it’s not existed before and it can spread like wildfire.

Slightly pedantic point on the mixed doubles - there is one of each sex on both sides which makes it balanced/fair. It’s not played as 2 women against 2 men which wouldnt be appropriate in a competition. As you were…

Excellent article. I have highlighted this paragraph below which sums up the insanity.

"Gender Dysphoria is the only psychological construct wherein the client essentially diagnoses themselves and also determines their own severity, (the Humpty Dumpty effect). The therapist is simply expected to ‘affirm’ the client’s false belief. The clinical assessment, intervention, evaluation and reformulation that occurs with every other psychological condition is not allowed. It is often even illegal. In some countries such as Brazil, Taiwan, Ecuador, Argentina, Germany, New Zealand and Canada, a therapist attempting to work ethically, (ie carrying out exploratory psychotherapy such as simply asking a client why they think they are ‘trans’) can lose their practicing license, or even be convicted for practicing so-called ‘conversion therapy’."

Thank you @nauticant

That wouldn’t help women in a scenario such as Sandies though
Are they doing that so they enforce single sex spaces aswell.
So trans can’t complain as there’s an alternative
or
To not have single sex spaces so women can’t complain

It’s not played as 2 women against 2 men which wouldnt be appropriate in a competition. As you were…

Going off at a tangent here - I imagine a team of Martina and Serena in their prime could easily thrash two Mr Couch Potatoes on the other side.

To not have single sex spaces so women can’t complain

Will one way forward be to report the authorities for not enforcing the H & S legislation? At present with the waffle about gender Id it's been too easy to get away with the situation in NHS Fife. Not that the staff in NHS Fife appeared to know about H & S Regs.

Yes! That had occurred to me too - tried to cover that angle with “competition”. Although if tickets were sold for your event I’d hope they’d be discounted to allow for the brevity of the spectacle?!

But perhaps easier than saying no to an entitled man.

It wouldn’t, but you can see they’re so desperately trying to ensure they do something, anything, than make the right decision and direction in line with the Supreme Court decision. It shows a board that’s inept, incapable, out of its depth and needing taken to task by a change of leadership and put in appropriate measures to sort it all out.

It just shows how much of an ongoing chokehold this ideology has over them.

There are some good people in NHS Fife desperately wanting some leadership.

Well kind of and I was allowed to play tennis, squash etc against my uni boyfriend for fun and fitness but if we had joined a league etc we would have been separated into our respective sex categories. Just because exceptional woman may beat unfit men it doesn't make m v f contests fair. It is called a tennis 'match' because the players are supposed to matched not one side of the net having a huge biological advantage over the other.

The bus drivers and passengers of Fife will be as delighted as the Public Health colleagues on the Board. Hahaha oh god and every night will look like Halloween night when surgery ends.

What is wrong with them? They need to draw straws to decide who gets sacked and then get on with their actual jobs.

On the mixed sex sport situation - I played very very recreational mixed tag rugby for a while and there were very strict rules to ensure balance and fairness. In particular:

• there was a minimum number of female players required to be playing at all times
• tries scored by women were worth double points

To me, that is a very clear recognition of male advantage, even at a beginner/social level. And it was very obvious when playing that male advantage still existed.

I'm not sure that mixed teams is really the solution people hope, as you still need to make the decision whether a trans woman takes a male or female spot on the pitch.

Sorry for confusion. It went across thread. R.e being discriminated against I was talking about why older transgender may not want to publicly speak out. 20 odd years ago it was legal to sack someone because they were trans etc and they may even have been assaulted.

We were talking about the impact on i.e. some older transgenders who may have playing causal sports at a local club for a long time, and like I say were a bit shit / it was causal. lNow that's not allowed regardless that those other club members thought which will have a substantial impact on them.

I don't want to detail the thread by getting into a general convo about this so I'll leave it there.

"Leave it there" famous last words... @InvisibleDragon I played rugby at uni. The women's first team actually beat the men's first team at touch rugby! It was an annual charity match...

Gillian McCauley was appointed Director of Nursing for Fife NHS in July 2025.

www.nhsfife.org/about-us/senior-management-team/senior-management-team/gillian-mcauley/#:~:text=Gillian%20McAuley%20was%20appointed%20Nurse,reshaping%20Nursing%20and%20Midwifery%20services.

She is responsible, among other things, for the Uniform Policy but what an absolute waste of a new director's skills and time, if her first role is to try to find a way around the law, in a manner that defeats public health priorities.

And it still won't be workable for staff who need to change heavily soiled clothing whether due to work or personal health reasons.

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/policies-and-procedures/hr-policies-and-procedures/hr-policies/nhs-fife-wide-staff-dress-and-uniform-policy/

Extracts:

4.3 Travelling in Uniform
4.3.1 Where changing facilities are available, staff must change into and out of uniform at work. Where there is no changing facility, uniforms should be covered where possible / practical when travelling to and from work and staff must change out of their uniform at the earliest opportunity.
...
4.4 Laundering of Uniforms
4.4.1 The risk of uniforms being contaminated with blood or body fluids is very dependent on the tasks performed by the healthcare worker. Such contamination carries an inherent risk (low) of transmission of disease. All uniforms that are visibly soiled with blood or body fluids must be sent to the Central Laundry for processing.

4.4.2 The guidance in DL (2018) 4 for ‘Home Laundering of Uniforms’ is outlined in about:blank Appendix 2.

I agree with this. It's not a solution and right now just find transgender staff i.e an office!

Longer term the staff need individual changing cubicles. Some don't want to change in front of the same sex full stop, and shouldn't be using loos as we found out in SP case.

It would cost money, however some sort of temp building in the carpark wouldn't be horrendously expensive with both unisex cubicles and two open plan spaces for each biological sex.

There needs to be a complete management overall at Fife. I don't know who has the power to force that.

They let you win??

I'll get my coat.

(Seriously, if it had been a vital match there would have been a lot of large men running very fast to intercept, and touch rugby or not, a real risk of dangerous collisions.)

I can't claim credit as I fell in the very shit causal sports category! No the men were very embarrassed.

From what I recall although touch there might have been rules about high speed collisions (generally not BC mixed) but these women were pretty fearless and constantly needed medical care. Some paused around final year job interview time with black eyes etc.

In my view it was about mens rugby and women's rugby being different sports. Women were better around evasion, tactics and were pretty fast. The mens many were chosen as brute force. But am biased naturally...

I suspect at your causal levels though a lot of the difference between men and women is men will have played far more sports from a young age, so not biological.

Historically in many areas (outside sports like maths) biological sex differences are overplayed and then out to be environmental sexism from a young age.

Alas at my school it was netball for girls, extremely boring and not many girls even played social football. Booooooo. I played cricket as the first girl, until I got too embarrassed as a teen.

Right off thread for now TTFN.

Edit for clarity: there are no biological mathematics differences! All sexism!

Tennis is the best example of inherent male advantage. It demolishes all the arguments trans activists spout about how women are merely being held back due to society treating them differently.

Tennis is lucrative for the top players - at Wimbledon the women earn the same prize money as the men. TV coverage is excellent. The players have top coaches and access to the same facilities as the men. There are good sponsorship and scholarship opportunities. AND they get to play with and against men, so they are not being held back by only playing each other.

And yet....

n my view it was about mens rugby and women's rugby being different sports. Women were better around evasion, tactics and were pretty fast. The mens many were chosen as brute force. But am biased naturally...

sweeping generalisation- Jason Robinson was chosen because he was fucking fast but definitely on the small side (for a rugby player), scrum halves and fly halves are definitely not chosen for their brute force but their ability to manage a game. You could argue that forwards are chosen for their brute force but not all players. It is true that Rugby players across the board have got much much bigger but that's true for the women's game too however a man playing a women at rugby will be "folding them like a deckchair" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

i just don't understand this idea that women go around routinely beating men of the same standard as them at sport, they just don't!

It is still allowed. You just have to call it what it is, mixed sex or unisex. No one is being stopped from playing sport, that's a common TRA lie. All the old school lovely transsexuals can still play casual sport if they want to, you just can't call the team they play on a women's team, it is and always was a mixed team.