Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/08/2025 21:44

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
46
WarrenTofficier · 10/08/2025 15:21

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 14:41

I can't claim credit as I fell in the very shit causal sports category! No the men were very embarrassed.

From what I recall although touch there might have been rules about high speed collisions (generally not BC mixed) but these women were pretty fearless and constantly needed medical care. Some paused around final year job interview time with black eyes etc.

In my view it was about mens rugby and women's rugby being different sports. Women were better around evasion, tactics and were pretty fast. The mens many were chosen as brute force. But am biased naturally...

I suspect at your causal levels though a lot of the difference between men and women is men will have played far more sports from a young age, so not biological.

Historically in many areas (outside sports like maths) biological sex differences are overplayed and then out to be environmental sexism from a young age.

Alas at my school it was netball for girls, extremely boring and not many girls even played social football. Booooooo. I played cricket as the first girl, until I got too embarrassed as a teen.

Right off thread for now TTFN.

Edit for clarity: there are no biological mathematics differences! All sexism!

Edited

Probably an large element of the men holding back because they were playing women and afraid of hurt them, grabbing them somewhere they shouldn't etc rather than actively let the little ladies win while the women gave it their absolute maximum.

Dogsrbrill · 10/08/2025 15:22

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 14:13

"Leave it there" famous last words... @InvisibleDragon I played rugby at uni. The women's first team actually beat the men's first team at touch rugby! It was an annual charity match...

I hate to say it but the men probably went really easy on the women's team.

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 16:00

Dogsrbrill · 10/08/2025 15:22

I hate to say it but the men probably went really easy on the women's team.

Absolutely not. Like I say it was touch rugby and they were extremely embarrassed/it was a competitive game between two uni first teams. Please don't underestimate womens' skills!

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 16:38

Honestly in those days the mens uni rugby team would have loved "accidentally" brushing women's breasts ha ha ha.

Anyway yes I agree r.e. transwomen making a team mixed, it just came up as an anecdote denying women were massively inferior at in non contract rugby because of our far inferior womanly biology.

It's not about competitive tennis we were more in the 54 year old "John who is now Jane" and has been playing in a Thursday evening women's social/causal tennis for eons after being invited along after transitioning.

According to my understanding of the SC ruling they'd now either have to leave or the club would to make the entire session mixed sex and that wouldn't work very well.

I acknowledged last thread I felt a bit sorry for these older generation transwomen who in my experience are far more reasonable, rare and respectful than the modern day equivalent.

I can't see it can be avoided. But equally I don't think Jane was doing anything wrong. And yes even on hormones she had a bit of a male advantage but it wasn't so great she was actually generally winning. If she had been she should have left and played elsewhere.

It's a bit like the transwomen demanding access to women's pool as her right after she was winning trophies. They have to make a general rules and then no transwomen can play as a women, even in a pub league.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 10/08/2025 16:56

I play mixed tennis. Believe me the guys go easy on the women.

Theswiveleyeballsinthesky · 10/08/2025 17:18

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 10/08/2025 16:56

I play mixed tennis. Believe me the guys go easy on the women.

DH plays mixed hockey - he confirms same

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 10/08/2025 18:46

Belated congratulations to @nauticant on your half-century. If you'd known then what you know now ...

mrshoho · 10/08/2025 18:50

Welcome to the fabulous 50's nauticant! These threads will be overtaking my age soon!

WarrenTofficier · 10/08/2025 19:04

Theswiveleyeballsinthesky · 10/08/2025 17:18

DH plays mixed hockey - he confirms same

DBro played field hockey he used to describe the annual uni men v women match as absolutely terrifying because the girls went all out while the guys were holding back. They regarded it as one of those things if a chap got a broken nose, fractured cheek bone etc in a game, awful but part and parcel of what they signed up for but none of the guys wanted to be the bloke that broke a woman's nose.
That isn't minimising the skill of the female players - the male v female imbalance isn't in skill it's in speed and strength and reach and lung capacity and denser bones and all the other little physical differences between male and female human bodies.
Top notch female professional sports teams are beaten by school boys not because the very best females in sport lack skill but because they can't equal the strength and speed of male bodies. If Jenny who used to be John can't win at tennis it's because Jenny lacks the skills or the fitness to compete at the level they are playing at not because they don't have male advantage.

viques · 10/08/2025 20:44

DrPrunesqualer · 09/08/2025 17:01

That is a really interesting article. Thanks

That article is so eminently sensible and logical. And so bloody obvious when it is laid out so clearly.

Thank you for posting it . A very fitting and sobering read to celebrate The Fiftieth Thread.

UpDo · 10/08/2025 21:15

DrPrunesqualer · 10/08/2025 10:06

That wouldn’t help women in a scenario such as Sandies though
Are they doing that so they enforce single sex spaces aswell.
So trans can’t complain as there’s an alternative
or
To not have single sex spaces so women can’t complain

It's batshit. Any job where staff regularly risk coming into contact with bodily fluids must have facilities for ad hoc changing, and they must meet legal requirements. Not rocket science.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 10/08/2025 21:30

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 16:38

Honestly in those days the mens uni rugby team would have loved "accidentally" brushing women's breasts ha ha ha.

Anyway yes I agree r.e. transwomen making a team mixed, it just came up as an anecdote denying women were massively inferior at in non contract rugby because of our far inferior womanly biology.

It's not about competitive tennis we were more in the 54 year old "John who is now Jane" and has been playing in a Thursday evening women's social/causal tennis for eons after being invited along after transitioning.

According to my understanding of the SC ruling they'd now either have to leave or the club would to make the entire session mixed sex and that wouldn't work very well.

I acknowledged last thread I felt a bit sorry for these older generation transwomen who in my experience are far more reasonable, rare and respectful than the modern day equivalent.

I can't see it can be avoided. But equally I don't think Jane was doing anything wrong. And yes even on hormones she had a bit of a male advantage but it wasn't so great she was actually generally winning. If she had been she should have left and played elsewhere.

It's a bit like the transwomen demanding access to women's pool as her right after she was winning trophies. They have to make a general rules and then no transwomen can play as a women, even in a pub league.

There will be plenty of mixed social sessions for Transwomen at tennis clubs. It's only team training sessions that are single sex. I think your worries are unfounded.

StellaAndCrow · 11/08/2025 11:41

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 10/08/2025 10:43

It wouldn’t, but you can see they’re so desperately trying to ensure they do something, anything, than make the right decision and direction in line with the Supreme Court decision. It shows a board that’s inept, incapable, out of its depth and needing taken to task by a change of leadership and put in appropriate measures to sort it all out.

Yes, NHS Fife showing themselves up time and time again. They'd rather "relax the rules" about having to change out of uniform than address the actual issue.

Cowards? So captured that they can't even consider just following the law? To arrogant to 'climb down' (because it might look like they're listening to women?).

They'd rather write a whole new dress code/uniform policy than just follow the law? Interested to see how this goes for them.

StellaAndCrow · 11/08/2025 11:43

BeLemonNow · 10/08/2025 16:38

Honestly in those days the mens uni rugby team would have loved "accidentally" brushing women's breasts ha ha ha.

Anyway yes I agree r.e. transwomen making a team mixed, it just came up as an anecdote denying women were massively inferior at in non contract rugby because of our far inferior womanly biology.

It's not about competitive tennis we were more in the 54 year old "John who is now Jane" and has been playing in a Thursday evening women's social/causal tennis for eons after being invited along after transitioning.

According to my understanding of the SC ruling they'd now either have to leave or the club would to make the entire session mixed sex and that wouldn't work very well.

I acknowledged last thread I felt a bit sorry for these older generation transwomen who in my experience are far more reasonable, rare and respectful than the modern day equivalent.

I can't see it can be avoided. But equally I don't think Jane was doing anything wrong. And yes even on hormones she had a bit of a male advantage but it wasn't so great she was actually generally winning. If she had been she should have left and played elsewhere.

It's a bit like the transwomen demanding access to women's pool as her right after she was winning trophies. They have to make a general rules and then no transwomen can play as a women, even in a pub league.

I can see where you're coming from, but I also feel for the women who Jane has played with over the years, who may not have felt comfortable about the situation, but been too kind to say anything.

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 19:37

Something is going on with a dispute between at least two women’s rights campaigners and boswelltoday.

I’ve been reading the nitter/twitter account of the women for a while and I can’t see any reason for boswelltodays intense verbal aggression against them. Actually I am very surprised that there is such a tone of voice against other campaigners who fight for the same cause.

Since their discussion centers around boswell’s texts on the SP case, I post it here instead of in women’s rights.
Perhaps someone has more insight into what is behind this. I do find it highly relevant due to the prominence of boswell’s posts and that they offered a second insight after tribunal tweets.

The text that might have started it: by Jean Hatchet:
https://jeanhatchet.substack.com/p/men-chasing-women

and the post on twix (nitter is open to read for everyone, without account)

https://nitter.poast.org/JeanHatchet/status/1953834436128055651#m
She argues that it’s her impression some men have muscled into the debate after the women did the hard work.

Point in case, boswells admission he uses AI / LLM to produce the texts, when before he mainly said in responses that it’s a team working on compiling the information, so one would assume a team of humans.

Some receipts of boswells’s aggression by a user connected to Jean Hatchet:

https://nitter.poast.org/lascapigliata8/status/1954629902084243460#m

https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGyA-sxcWMAAcvcA.jpg
(Screenshots of messages / comments)

https://nitter.poast.org/JeanHatchet/status/1954851799636078652#m

Opposite take:
https://nitter.poast.org/kharraku/status/1954583718800359591#m

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 19:39

The question is also whether we are all just a test case to see how realistic AI analysis is; are we a test case for boswell's models?

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 19:42

His post about the use of AI:
https://nitter.poast.org/boswelltoday/status/1954514825305895406#m

"I used a lot of AI. I had a data scientist and a lawyer involved. The Grover tweets came from a GPT trained on 2,000 pages of case history and a live feed from TT, whose excellent work I’ve acknowledged many times – I even pay a subscription to support their open justice reporting.

I also had someone in the court feeding me directly via DM. Am I supposed to feel shame? Or is this one of those “What do I need a mobile phone for?” moments?

Twelve million people saw those tweets. Only one factual correction was needed – and I acknowledged it immediately when it was pointed out."

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/08/2025 20:19

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 19:37

Something is going on with a dispute between at least two women’s rights campaigners and boswelltoday.

I’ve been reading the nitter/twitter account of the women for a while and I can’t see any reason for boswelltodays intense verbal aggression against them. Actually I am very surprised that there is such a tone of voice against other campaigners who fight for the same cause.

Since their discussion centers around boswell’s texts on the SP case, I post it here instead of in women’s rights.
Perhaps someone has more insight into what is behind this. I do find it highly relevant due to the prominence of boswell’s posts and that they offered a second insight after tribunal tweets.

The text that might have started it: by Jean Hatchet:
https://jeanhatchet.substack.com/p/men-chasing-women

and the post on twix (nitter is open to read for everyone, without account)

https://nitter.poast.org/JeanHatchet/status/1953834436128055651#m
She argues that it’s her impression some men have muscled into the debate after the women did the hard work.

Point in case, boswells admission he uses AI / LLM to produce the texts, when before he mainly said in responses that it’s a team working on compiling the information, so one would assume a team of humans.

Some receipts of boswells’s aggression by a user connected to Jean Hatchet:

https://nitter.poast.org/lascapigliata8/status/1954629902084243460#m

https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGyA-sxcWMAAcvcA.jpg
(Screenshots of messages / comments)

https://nitter.poast.org/JeanHatchet/status/1954851799636078652#m

Opposite take:
https://nitter.poast.org/kharraku/status/1954583718800359591#m

Difficult to tell what is going on even with the messages.

Could the 'Nurse!' comment be an attempt at a joke - i.e. something like 'sick burn we're going to need a Nurse!'

Then a rapidly building tower of increasing offence in response to prior offence?

Has anyone followed this closely - any better suggestions as to what is going on?

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 21:14

@SlackJawedDisbeliefXY

yeah, but not only the "nurse" comment, but to lascapigliata8 from the link above:
"crazy"/"stupid"/"nuts"/ and to Jean Hatchet: "you're a horrible XXX"

I can't even type this, I don't like the language.

From here:
https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGyA-sxcWMAAcvcA.jpg
https://nitter.poast.org/lascapigliata8/status/1954629902084243460#m

That's just aggressive man talk, that's not a debate.

Bannedontherun · 11/08/2025 21:26

Thats him done then innit lol

Betheadore · 11/08/2025 21:28

I've seen the odd comment but wasn't sure what was going on, so in view of the argument being about AI ( I thought someone said his photo was AI generated?), I asked Grok 😂
Reply ;

The conflict between Boswell (likely referring to the X user
@boswelltoday
) and Jean Hatchet (
@JeanHatchet
) appears to stem from a series of interactions on X involving accusations of misogyny and personal attacks. Based on posts found on X, the dispute seems to be rooted in a broader discussion about gender dynamics and feminism, particularly within the context of the women's movement.
Nature of the Argument: Jean Hatchet reportedly wrote a piece addressing men in the women's movement after observing what she perceived as misogynistic tweets from
@boswelltoday
directed at another user (
@MalleyNotagain
). This piece was interpreted by
@boswelltoday
as a personal attack, which escalated the situation. Other X users have weighed in, with some accusing
@boswelltoday
of misogyny and others defending him, framing Jean Hatchet's response as an overreaction or misandry. For instance, one user suggested that Jean's criticism might stem from jealousy or an attempt to discredit
@boswelltoday
by labeling him a misogynist. Another user described
@boswelltoday
's behavior as banter, contrasting it with Jean Hatchet's response, which they claim did not devolve into victimhood.
Current Status: As of August 11, 2025, the argument appears to be playing out publicly on X, with various users taking sides. There’s no indication of a formal resolution or direct dialogue between the two parties to de-escalate the situation. The posts reflect ongoing tension, with accusations of personal attacks, mockery, and ideological disagreements about gender and feminism.
Why They Are Arguing: The core issue seems to be a clash over perceived misogyny and how it’s addressed within feminist discourse. Jean Hatchet’s critique of
@boswelltoday
’s behavior sparked a defensive response, leading to a broader debate involving their respective supporters. The argument is less about a specific event and more about differing interpretations of tone, intent, and the boundaries of acceptable discourse in gender-related discussions.
Without more specific details from either party, such as direct statements or a clear timeline of events, this summary is based on the sentiment and context provided by X posts. If you’d like me to search for more recent posts or analyze specific content from either user to provide further clarity, please let me know!

LastTrainsEast · 11/08/2025 21:31

I tried to make sense of all this and couldn't so the posts above help.

If ConstructionTime is correct and Jean Hatchet's article is what began it then surely it's settled that he was just answering back?

How certain is it that this was the start?

The nurse! comment I would definitely read as someone in a hospital bed calling for a Nurse and not saying that a poster WAS a nurse. I don't see how the latter would make any sense.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/08/2025 22:07

There is some discussion of Boswell here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5389252-men-in-the-movement?

(The OP hasn't been back to confirm whether the post was aimed at the Boswell twitter stuff, but that's what it seemed to be about IMO).

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 22:08

If you look at his "tweets & replies", not only at tweets, the past days show a lot of aggressiveness and bad temper. So I think "banter" is too friendly of a description.
I had not clocked the earlier reply to malleynotagain, because I didn't go that far back yet and I'm myself trying to figure out what is going on.

But it seems there are two issues: The AI use which was disclosed late (as I mentioned, early replies of his spoke of a "team"), and which also used a lot of Tribunal Tweets' work, and the fight with others, of which I don't know the complete background.

There were people who formulated better what I am thinking about:
hatpinwoman /x
https://nitter.poast.org/hatpinwoman/status/1954541074036244865#m

"Using AI to make posts about the harm of the trans movement stands in direct contrast to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of sincere and heartfelt words that have been offered by women
And by good men who support us
It stands in contrast to the time, the effort, the thought and the conviction behind what we say via text based mediums and via our own voices

I think it stands in direct contrast to the fact gathering, research based, and boots on the ground expertise of many women as well I would also really question why a given individual would require a whole team to make coherent tweets unless they hope to make money from ‘their’ input without doing the kind of work a vast number of women are doing for free

It actually matters that human beings negotiate these issues, and preserve women and children’s rights.
And for any man to swan in, and abdicate moral responsibility to a mindless machine on our behalf, is entirely unethical
Letting a machine speak for you is a personal choice you should make in your free time…
Not in the centre of an existential fight for women’s human rights
I think Jean Hatchet was right to raise a red flag for our attention here"

and

ShararAli / X
https://nitter.poast.org/ShahrarAli/status/1954647070431932786#m

"Really disappointed to learn about extensive use of AI in posts from the boswell account. Even were it partial, that still would have had the power to infiltrate the whole. Failure to have disclosed this at point of publication adds another problematic layer.

People do need to know who is behind the words they read. That has not to do with anonymity as such, as the many fantastic anon accounts here would attest - it's to do with those most fundamental conditions of truth, authenticity & testimony. Passing off someone else's work as one's own is dishonest (aka plagiarism), but so is passing off nobody's work as one's own.
A machine is not a person.

I had no idea the temptation to exploit AI for such purposes was quite so extreme - although I'm aware of the increased risk or temptation in recruitment etc.
Looks like we might be facing a growing problem & I guess it shouldn't be too hard to "instruct" a machine to introduce some "imperfections", for those who did cotton on to the signs or had the suspicion.
I'm really grateful to those who raised the alarm. Authorship is a fundamental condition of speech worthy of the name."

ConstructionTime · 11/08/2025 22:09

@NebulousSupportPostcard
thanks, I hadn't seen that, or I would have added my comments there. I will go and read the other thread now, too.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.