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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

OP posts:

Thread gallery

viques · 04/08/2025 14:33

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 13:47

I am the very model of a woman biological
It’s not a notion any way that can be paradoxical
From phenotype to chromosomes it’s really very logical
And as to sex I really am a female categorical

(cont)

Edited

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I do like the cunning way you referenced the dog whistle!

viques · 04/08/2025 14:35

viques · 04/08/2025 14:33

I do like the cunning way you referenced the dog whistle!

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Sorry, just remembered the dog whistle wasn’t paradoxical it was merely nebulous. These things matter. 🙂

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 04/08/2025 14:37

OuterSpaceCadet · 04/08/2025 13:06

I'm only able to read approx 10% of these incredibly informative threads so soz if already mentioned.....

But I'm sure there was something about the internet connection mysteriously cutting in and out during DrU's online meeting with the phone expert?

There is a suggestion of a Blue Peter style 'Here's one I made earlier' incident when the internet 'dropped out'

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 14:38

viques · 04/08/2025 14:35

Sorry, just remembered the dog whistle wasn’t paradoxical it was merely nebulous. These things matter. 🙂

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I tried to work in nebulous but it didn’t scan very well. I’ll give it another go.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 04/08/2025 14:39

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 14:38

I tried to work in nebulous but it didn’t scan very well. I’ll give it another go.

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Second verse, obvs!

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 14:41

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2025 11:22

@nauticant
a) the fact that Searle's email was a databreech
b) she hadn't even spoken to Peggie
c) the amount of colluding going on before ANYONE spoke to Peggie
d) the amount of running around with concern about duty of care to Upton but not to Peggie (Basically the Doctors v Nurses dynamic)
e) the total lack of policy anywhere despite Bumba being asked about trans stuff so regularly
f) the use of the word 'safety' with regards to Upton a 6'2" bloke who needed escorting to the car by a woman who was probably only just shy of a foot shorter than him
g) the total lack of thought to the 'safety' of women in a changing room with men.
h) the fact that the word 'safety' was used about hurty words in the first place to a doctor who works in an A&E and is likely to come across all sorts. Upton was NOT the person who started this narative of 'safety'. This was allies who got carried away pandering and purity spiralling.
i) the point where it was asked what process and steps could Peggie have taken that she didn't when she was distressed / concerned over the matter and the admission she was completely fucked as there wasn't a way she could
j) the lack of proper coordination and oversight between HR, DEI and Legal departments. None of them knew what any of the others did and what their responsibility were. The fact that DEI took the lead over HR and Legal stand out most as one of the reasons why NHS Fife got into this mess in the first place
k) The collective amnesia at NHS Fife which begs for investigation in case there is an underlying issue with memory loss in the area. Maaybe theres something in the water. Of course they could have recorded issues at the time as part of due process, but... "I don't recall".
l) The Sad Times note. The notes generally didn't match the drama that everyone later then (amazing memory this) did recall
m) JR slowly starting to lose the plot in court as the case went on, and all her witnesses for the Defence turns out to be utter turkeys leaving her up shit creek with only heresay, gossip and nasty accusations as a place to go. All the shitty little snipes with namecalling came latter on. As did the argument over pronouns and the extensive loss of time in private meetings and clear attempts to filibuster witnesses.
n) NC saying no.

The fact that DEI took the lead over HR and Legal stand out most as one of the reasons why NHS Fife got into this mess in the first place

That's a really good point, thanks RTB

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/08/2025 14:42

NebulousSupportPostcard · 03/08/2025 21:09

I still can't get over Upton describing the alleged ignoring as a 'patient safety' issue because HE wouldn't be able to care for patients if he was upset by being ignored. He described it as though it were a live incident like an explosion or RTA when he said patients safety means "individual safety first, then the team, then the patient". I mean, absolutely if you are pulling people from a burning building you have to keep yourself out of danger first or nobody's getting saved, but the idea that his feelings trump the safety of the patient in front of him in A&E is utterly ludicrous.

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Thank you for spelling that out. Whn that first flew past I thought "Upton can't mean that, it would be too mad, I must have misunderstood" and I kind of skipped over it mentally so it's good to have some confirmation from other people that yes that's really what Upton said.

ruffler45 · 04/08/2025 14:43

The naivety of the staff at the hospital as to their roles and procedures

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 14:47

Harassedevictee · 04/08/2025 12:31

That NHSF didn’t have a policy regarding changing rooms, toilets etc. but every witness knew what the policy was.
The review of suspension was done correctly but KS, ED etc. tried to interfere and overturn the correct decision to end it.
The HCA who gave an accurate witness statement and clearly kept quiet about it. Far more integrity than senior Drs.
How many people didn’t think about the consequences of their actions e.g. KS enhancing the Datix report, DrUs belated professional misconduct allegations, LN not realising her GDPR breach would be revealed etc.

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A first investigation that was denied to have taken place at the start of the hearing while, at the end, not even the defence could motivate themselves to maintain the pretence that it hadn't happened.

Wow, yes. It's strange looking back to February and remembering how much NHSF's standpoint changed from then.

Jacopo · 04/08/2025 14:49

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 14:38

I tried to work in nebulous but it didn’t scan very well. I’ll give it another go.

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The binary is simply something that is somewhat nebulous
And even if I do possess two testes that are pendulous
I will assert my femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous

Chorus: He will assert his femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous!

TimeForATerf · 04/08/2025 14:51

🖐Miss Piggy and Maya Forshatter for me @nauticant

......... to all on here, I have dipped in and out the last few days so may have missed it, but I didn't miss it on X.

Has the reason for Jamie Doyle's lack of attendance been discussed on here? with regard to his current partner, the ex nurse who was struck off. If not well there's a tale and a half.

TheAutumnCrow · 04/08/2025 14:51

Jane Russell KC seriously trying to argue to that the Supreme Court ruling was just a minor issue to do with public board representation in Scotland and not relevant to the tribunal - that was a big WTFingF?! moment for me.

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 14:53

Oh, another one - Upton quite openly admitting that even if a female patient specifically said she wanted a female doctor, he'd still go to see her and make her object in person.

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 14:53

I’m very well acquainted with the idea of nebulosity
I express myself in many terms of pomp and grandiosity
Their origin admittedly is something quite mysterious
It’s baffling that some people just don’t think that they’re serious

Seymour5 · 04/08/2025 14:53

Jacopo · 04/08/2025 14:49

The binary is simply something that is somewhat nebulous
And even if I do possess two testes that are pendulous
I will assert my femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous

Chorus: He will assert his femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous!

Show quote history

Loving the nods to G&S.

A musical in the offing perhaps?

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 15:00

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/08/2025 13:30

"6th best option" was another classic moment.

"6th best option"

Oh yes, that was excellent.

As a way of getting evidence from Upton's phone

"so, you chose the 6th best option" i.e. of Upton himself downloading and selecting what evidence to send, as discussed on a Teams link which mysteriously kept losing connection.

WannabeEDIOfficer · 04/08/2025 15:03

All the accidental misgendering from Upton's own side. Sorry, I know this is petty.

Isla not knowing her own sex.

Thr investigation shenanigans.

JR'S bloody minded perseverance to argue the case as a point where I would be cowering under the desk.

Peter the plumber.

My question is, do you think JR qas specifically instructed to ask how Sandy's case was being funded? It felt vindictive and I don't know how it helped NHS Fife.

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 15:05

AnnaBalfour · 04/08/2025 14:10

The allowing of meetings to go over the evidence and the interviews with just DU and KS (I think it was her) with no notes or minutes taken, just them two, allowing DU to potentially change what he didn’t like with it.

Yes, and the complete lack of minutes of so many important meetings where critical decisions were made!

mrshoho · 04/08/2025 15:10

mrshoho · 04/08/2025 13:40

Has Lindsey's email to 20 senior doctors been mentioned? Disclosing confidential information about Sandie and the investigation. As well as basically telling them all she expects they will all side with Upton!

Oops I muddled the witnesses here, that ahould say Kate Searle's email.

Lindsey was the senior nurse who dug her own hole. Her evidence showed she herself had breached gdpr rules on the Benidorm chat.

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 15:11

Jacopo · 04/08/2025 14:49

The binary is simply something that is somewhat nebulous
And even if I do possess two testes that are pendulous
I will assert my femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous

Chorus: He will assert his femaleness in tones that are quite tremulous!

Show quote history

That's really good! Loving all these verses.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/08/2025 15:11

Even if she had been specifically instructed to ask about funding, that wouldn't excuse her. She knows perfectly well what is and is not permitted.

Running a futile line of questioning on a client's insistence is one thing. Attempting to break the law on instruction is quite another.

WannabeEDIOfficer · 04/08/2025 15:14

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/08/2025 15:11

Even if she had been specifically instructed to ask about funding, that wouldn't excuse her. She knows perfectly well what is and is not permitted.

Running a futile line of questioning on a client's insistence is one thing. Attempting to break the law on instruction is quite another.

Thank you

ifIwerenotanandroid · 04/08/2025 15:15

viques · 04/08/2025 11:19

I know we have had a lot of poems and song lyrics to keep us amused, but omg I do wish Gilbert and Sullivan were alive to do “ I am biologically female” the justice it deserves with tongue twisting, gender mangling, pronoun rich lyrics, joyful music and a rousing chorus - dressed in raspberry coloured scrubs.

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Maybe Tom Lehrer (RIP)'s 'The Elements' but about all the known genders? (Are there any waiting to be discarvard?)

Paging Mr Menno!

MyAmpleSheep · 04/08/2025 15:15

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 14:38

I tried to work in nebulous but it didn’t scan very well. I’ll give it another go.

Show quote history

Nebulosity? Rhymes with pomposity and curiosity.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 04/08/2025 15:20

Also, how about Naomi's cross examinations as a TV game show in whch witnesses are 'out' (to the sound of a klaxon) as soon as they misgender DU? Like the old game show in whch you can't answer a question with 'yes' or 'no', Who lasted longest, btw?

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