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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 13:31

KeepTalkingBeth · 04/08/2025 10:48

The delay in the investigation(s)

The letter that Sandie never got because it was never sent out

The lack of clarity as to whether the first investigation was an investigation - NHSF trying to say it wasn't, because it if was it was so tainted.

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 13:33

Another one for Nauticant. Isla Bumba's complete lack of any legal basis for her advice, research via Google, "other people do it like this"

SqueakyDinosaur · 04/08/2025 13:36

One of the things that has consistently struck me throughout is the absolute conviction of all the defence witnesses that they were right. I think quite a few of them still do.

And on specifics, for @nauticant 's list, let's not forget that NHS Fife staff annotated a copy of the Information Commissioner's judgement on disclosure, saying it was "emotional... selective...not professional" AND THEN SENT THAT TO A THIRD PARTY IN RESPONSE TO A TOTALLY SEPARATE REQUEST FOR INFORMATION RELATED TO THAT PERSON'S CHILD!!

The image in my head of NHS Fife is a sort of post-nuclear apocalyptic scene with a few hideously injured survivors crawling around. That's not what you want from your local health authority.

MsPulchritude · 04/08/2025 13:36

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 13:33

Another one for Nauticant. Isla Bumba's complete lack of any legal basis for her advice, research via Google, "other people do it like this"

And she wasn't even the 'top trans ally' at NHS Fife either.

mrshoho · 04/08/2025 13:36

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/08/2025 13:30

Upton is technically correct. As a doctor you first need to ensure your own safety as you are no use to the patient if you are incapacitated. When you do the Advanced Trauma Life Support course & have to act out scenarios with fake patients the first question you ask is "Is it safe to approach the patient?" However this is more in relation to avoiding an axe-wielding lunatic or a collapsing building or vehicle on fire rather than attending a patient in a hospital bed.

Yes i remember my first aid at work training; in the event of a potential casualty injured due to electrocution, first make sure you do not put yourself at risk and avoid the area until the hazard has been removed. Slightly different to Upton's take on it that he must first prioritise his delicate feelings before treating a patient!

TheAutumnCrow · 04/08/2025 13:39

lcakethereforeIam · 04/08/2025 12:02

Thank you, that’s an excellent piece from Michael Foran today.

@nauticant - there’s some good examples of stand-out moments within this. Worth a look if you haven’t already.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/08/2025 13:39

One thing that I only recently twigged was that after the interaction in the changing room with Upton that Sandie thought no more of it & continued with her shift. She was not aware that the sobbing cry-baby needed an escort to his car for his own safety. She went home at the end of her shift completely unaware of the shitstorm that was about to engulf her.

I'm not entirely clear when she was informed she was being suspended. She only worked two nights a week so I'm not sure when she was next due on shift. She was phoned up & called in for a meeting that wasn't an official meeting but was this the next day or later? AFAIK it wasn't until that phone call that she knew there was any problem.

mrshoho · 04/08/2025 13:40

Has Lindsey's email to 20 senior doctors been mentioned? Disclosing confidential information about Sandie and the investigation. As well as basically telling them all she expects they will all side with Upton!

nauticant · 04/08/2025 13:40

TheAutumnCrow · 04/08/2025 13:39

Thank you, that’s an excellent piece from Michael Foran today.

@nauticant - there’s some good examples of stand-out moments within this. Worth a look if you haven’t already.

Will do, cheers.

OP posts:
SternlyMatthews · 04/08/2025 13:42

viques · 04/08/2025 11:19

I know we have had a lot of poems and song lyrics to keep us amused, but omg I do wish Gilbert and Sullivan were alive to do “ I am biologically female” the justice it deserves with tongue twisting, gender mangling, pronoun rich lyrics, joyful music and a rousing chorus - dressed in raspberry coloured scrubs.

"I am biologically female" : I've thought of a tune that fits:
"I've got a loverly bunch of coconuts"

(treat 'logically' as a triplet, ie 3 notes squeezed into one beat, to fit better)

https youtu.be watch?v=nf670orHKcA?t=2

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/nf670orHKcA?t=2

NotNatacha · 04/08/2025 13:46

@StellaAndCrow , re Dr Upton carrying on - where's the laugh button when you need it?!

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 13:47

viques · 04/08/2025 11:19

I know we have had a lot of poems and song lyrics to keep us amused, but omg I do wish Gilbert and Sullivan were alive to do “ I am biologically female” the justice it deserves with tongue twisting, gender mangling, pronoun rich lyrics, joyful music and a rousing chorus - dressed in raspberry coloured scrubs.

I am the very model of a woman biological
It’s not a notion any way that can be paradoxical
From phenotype to chromosomes it’s really very logical
And as to sex I really am a female categorical

(cont)

SternlyMatthews · 04/08/2025 13:47

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/08/2025 13:39

One thing that I only recently twigged was that after the interaction in the changing room with Upton that Sandie thought no more of it & continued with her shift. She was not aware that the sobbing cry-baby needed an escort to his car for his own safety. She went home at the end of her shift completely unaware of the shitstorm that was about to engulf her.

I'm not entirely clear when she was informed she was being suspended. She only worked two nights a week so I'm not sure when she was next due on shift. She was phoned up & called in for a meeting that wasn't an official meeting but was this the next day or later? AFAIK it wasn't until that phone call that she knew there was any problem.

She managed to put it at the back of her mind, while completing her shift but was seriously upset next day with her mum, as the family all testified.

She got called in for 'a chat', actually first stage, but without telling her formally, as they asked about having a rep.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/08/2025 13:47

Re the 'top ally' thing, I think this has been misinterpreted because of the way TT abridged the transcription.

I don't think Isla Bumba was claiming to not be the top ally of trans people. I think she was denying that putting 'trans ally' in her email footer (and mentioning no other PCs) necessarily implied that gender was her top EDI priority.

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 04/08/2025 14:00

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 13:33

Another one for Nauticant. Isla Bumba's complete lack of any legal basis for her advice, research via Google, "other people do it like this"

The judge saying something like you don't know what we're on about to IB when he had determined she had never been to the changing room.

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 04/08/2025 14:01

I think with a little bit of brushing up, we could all go on Mastermind.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/08/2025 14:06

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 13:47

I am the very model of a woman biological
It’s not a notion any way that can be paradoxical
From phenotype to chromosomes it’s really very logical
And as to sex I really am a female categorical

(cont)

Edited

Oh where's the laugh reaction when we need it!

mrshoho · 04/08/2025 14:06

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 04/08/2025 14:01

I think with a little bit of brushing up, we could all go on Mastermind.

😅🤣 very true! I never had a specialist subject until now!

AnnaBalfour · 04/08/2025 14:10

The allowing of meetings to go over the evidence and the interviews with just DU and KS (I think it was her) with no notes or minutes taken, just them two, allowing DU to potentially change what he didn’t like with it.

KeepTalkingBeth · 04/08/2025 14:11

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 13:47

I am the very model of a woman biological
It’s not a notion any way that can be paradoxical
From phenotype to chromosomes it’s really very logical
And as to sex I really am a female categorical

(cont)

Edited

Fabulous! Can't get the minions out of my head though

KeepTalkingBeth · 04/08/2025 14:12

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 04/08/2025 14:00

The judge saying something like you don't know what we're on about to IB when he had determined she had never been to the changing room.

"Then you don't know what we're talking about"
Ouch

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/08/2025 14:14

One of my very favourite moments wasn't in that courtroom at all. In February Upton said "biological sex" was a nebulous dog-whistle yet during April the five judges of the Supreme Court used "biological sex" for the meaning of sex in the Equality Act 2010 (and by extension a lot of other legal places too)

What more to say?

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 04/08/2025 14:15

StellaAndCrow · 04/08/2025 13:07

On the first occasion, Dr Upton was informed at less than 24 hours notice it was “not safe” to work a nightshift because Ms Peggie was down for a shift.
“This caused me a lot of anxiety especially as it was so short notice and hadn’t been noticed by my supervisor, but by one of the senior nurses,” Dr Upton wrote.
Dr Upton said: “I have had an email from the rota coordinator who took me off the shift but is now asking me when I would like to rearrange the ‘missed’ night shift for.
“Being honest, I am a bit perturbed by this.
“I acknowledge I’m contracted to work a certain number of shifts but I find it difficult to accept that I need to disrupt my schedule to rearrange the shift given that the reason I didn’t work is nothing to do with me."

FFS, that's the epitome of luxury definition of "not safe" isn't it?

And everyone's happy for Sandie to have to completely rearrange her life to work days instead of nights

I'm running out of FFSs

Just shows the amount of bias within Fife NHS.

For Uptonogood it is all sweetness and light, let’s protect the poor gentle soul six foot rugby player fully intact male young male on a good salary and well educated middle class privilege

For Sandie it is all this is your shift so suck it up. Female, short, older, working class, lower pay, part time

SinnerBoy · 04/08/2025 14:20

Blimey. Thanks for all your Sterling thread work, Nauticant! I went away for 10 days with my daughter and wasn't able to keep up at all!

And thanks to everyone who posted TT and news analysis.

And the humour! And a mention in dispatches for the celery soup and courgette cake...

My tuppence on interesting points:

Upton photoshopping his Google Notes and editing them later, to dishonesty claim that he'd written them immediately after the events. To me, that's seriously dishonest and surely, in the eyes of the panel, must destroy his credibility.

Lins77 · 04/08/2025 14:29

Fife IT guy (forgot his name) saying DU wasn't leading them up the garden path. Only for Jim Borwick to make it very obvious that he was.

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