Page 39 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/08/2025 23:34

prh47bridge · 07/08/2025 18:17

I may be wrong, but I think the doctors' changing room is a myth that has sprung up on social media. Female doctors used the same changing room as nurses, although senior doctors got changed elsewhere. My understanding is that there is a room where doctors on long shifts can rest, but this is not a changing room.

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Correct. The consultants have a lounge/on call area that includes a small changing room, but junior doctors change with the nurses. And I don't think the consultants' area includes lockers, so consultants may use the locker room even if they don't actually change in it. The very senior nurses change in their personal offices.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 07/08/2025 23:59

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/08/2025 23:34

Correct. The consultants have a lounge/on call area that includes a small changing room, but junior doctors change with the nurses. And I don't think the consultants' area includes lockers, so consultants may use the locker room even if they don't actually change in it. The very senior nurses change in their personal offices.

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It is clear though that the room SP changed in was labelled as being for women. Given the likelihood that there were male nurses and junior doctors needing to change, there must surely have been an equivalent room labelled as being for men. So I am sure DU had a suitable men's changing room to use.

Needspaceforlego · 08/08/2025 00:26

SionnachRuadh · 07/08/2025 12:24

It isn't clear if there were several thousand pages or several thousand messages. We know that 24 pages were submitted by NC in addition to anything submitted by JR.

If the chat covers seven years that's roughly 2500 days - I wouldn't know how busy it would be, but a printout could easily run to several thousand pages.

My assumption is that both counsel have restricted themselves to the small proportion of the chat that might have some relevance to the character or truthfulness of witnesses.

My guess is NC and team have been through it with a fine tooth comb. Remember they found the comment that the witness made naming a patient in nappies. Plus the hint they're was other stuff in there that shouldn't be but she wouldn't mention.

It was becoming clear JR was trying to throw mud so NC already had stuff lined up to fire back.

I think they'd probably already been through it looking for any comments about Upton.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 08/08/2025 00:51

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 07/08/2025 23:59

It is clear though that the room SP changed in was labelled as being for women. Given the likelihood that there were male nurses and junior doctors needing to change, there must surely have been an equivalent room labelled as being for men. So I am sure DU had a suitable men's changing room to use.

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Absolutely.

PeonyPatch · 08/08/2025 06:12

It would seem to me that trans women do not want to use men’s changing areas or toilets due to reaction they would receive from men, and that is why (along with their own validation) they seek to use female areas. Too long have women had to simply put up with things and go along with it.

This is the problem with transitioning of genders. I just don’t feel it’s been thought through at all, and there are no real policies or systems in place for them that also protects biological sexes. This is something they need to take into account before deciding to transition, not force it upon people to accommodate them.

BezMills · 08/08/2025 06:55

Lots of men aren't thrilled about using the men's toilets.

The smell, sticky floor, the social horror of correct urinal choice, shy bladder, drunks, aggression, unsolicited fashion advice, homophobia ... the list goes on.

It's just the way it is. We can't all just opt in to using the women's toilets because our user experience in the men's is sub par. You (royal you) just have to get in, have a pee, wash your hands and get out. Isn't it?

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 08/08/2025 07:23

PeonyPatch · 08/08/2025 06:12

It would seem to me that trans women do not want to use men’s changing areas or toilets due to reaction they would receive from men, and that is why (along with their own validation) they seek to use female areas. Too long have women had to simply put up with things and go along with it.

This is the problem with transitioning of genders. I just don’t feel it’s been thought through at all, and there are no real policies or systems in place for them that also protects biological sexes. This is something they need to take into account before deciding to transition, not force it upon people to accommodate them.

I would think that the majority of people on this forum would think the same about the issues with transitioning. Bar a few exceptions, which I have seen called out here more than once, no one suggests trans people, including TIM's shouldn't be allowed to live in peace.

The issues that they face now have been brought on by themselves. If the advocacy from the start had been about making a space for them to reflect their specific needs, in full acknowledgment that these would be different to those of the sex they wish they were, they would have had the support and backing of those of us here now.

If instead of trying to rewrite the rules of sex segregation, put in place for clearly understood reasons, they had sought a space to fit in, and compromises to accommodate, I think the movement would have been highly successful.

As it is they chose the route of "no debate" and "acceptance without exception" and refuse to acknowledge that there is another way. Or could have been.

I suspect that the swing back against their ill advised push will go quite a long way and advocacy for a balancing and new spaces will have to start again.

I also expect we will see a large number of the hangers on of this ideology drop off. Especially when access to women goes for men, and for the outsiders it is no longer seen as special.

DeanElderberry · 08/08/2025 08:18

BezMills · 08/08/2025 06:55

Lots of men aren't thrilled about using the men's toilets.

The smell, sticky floor, the social horror of correct urinal choice, shy bladder, drunks, aggression, unsolicited fashion advice, homophobia ... the list goes on.

It's just the way it is. We can't all just opt in to using the women's toilets because our user experience in the men's is sub par. You (royal you) just have to get in, have a pee, wash your hands and get out. Isn't it?

Edited

Of course, men could also start demanding better cleaning regimes - and behavior from other men. Didn't somewhere, maybe Switzerland, a decade or two back, try requiring men sit to pee in order to avoid splash?

I used the staff loo at my vets' last week, mostly used by the vets who are mostly men, though there is a woman on reception and occasional female vets. No actual dampness but very pongy ambience.

Contrast with the staff loo at the pharmacy, male pharmacist but mostly female staff. Always immaculate.

NB I am grateful for anywhere that lets me use the loo if I'm daft enough to drink a mug of tea just before I head off to town.

KnottyAuty · 08/08/2025 08:43

PeonyPatch · 08/08/2025 06:12

It would seem to me that trans women do not want to use men’s changing areas or toilets due to reaction they would receive from men, and that is why (along with their own validation) they seek to use female areas. Too long have women had to simply put up with things and go along with it.

This is the problem with transitioning of genders. I just don’t feel it’s been thought through at all, and there are no real policies or systems in place for them that also protects biological sexes. This is something they need to take into account before deciding to transition, not force it upon people to accommodate them.

Exactly. There’s a lazy assumption that trans people are “vanishingly rare” when the Scottish Census figures suggest it’s 1 in 70 for the under 25s. At that rate, a “budge up women” strategy is wholly inappropriate for all concerned

KnottyAuty · 08/08/2025 08:47

BezMills · 08/08/2025 06:55

Lots of men aren't thrilled about using the men's toilets.

The smell, sticky floor, the social horror of correct urinal choice, shy bladder, drunks, aggression, unsolicited fashion advice, homophobia ... the list goes on.

It's just the way it is. We can't all just opt in to using the women's toilets because our user experience in the men's is sub par. You (royal you) just have to get in, have a pee, wash your hands and get out. Isn't it?

Edited

DS has been educating me on the urinal choice dilemma. It’s maybe the tool that women could use to make the point about TIMs ruining dignity and privacy in single sex spaces - the equivalent of a man choosing the urinal immediately next to “you” in an otherwise empty gents toilet?

DeanElderberry · 08/08/2025 09:27

About 15 - 20 years ago (aka around the time the madness was starting) there was a suggestion from the Netherlands that women should be using urinals to save time. I couldn't work out how the practicalities would be addressed (apart from the sheer horror of being expected to pee in public). Of course I now know that wasn't a consideration.

More and more I think 'No Debate' was a slogan to counter 'Me Too',

TimeForATerf · 08/08/2025 10:33

Lins77 · 07/08/2025 18:13

SP did say the room was used by doctors, nurses and support staff though, IIRC.

I was just thinking though about how there's really no reason for DU not to use the men's. It's not like a public loo (not that anything's likely to happen to him there either). But really, what are a bunch of male doctors going to do? He'd be "safer" there among his peers than pissing people off in the women's.

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Take the piss behind his back about his pink bra and big girls' knickers maybe?

Londonmummy66 · 08/08/2025 11:04

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 07/08/2025 23:59

It is clear though that the room SP changed in was labelled as being for women. Given the likelihood that there were male nurses and junior doctors needing to change, there must surely have been an equivalent room labelled as being for men. So I am sure DU had a suitable men's changing room to use.

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There was - it was on the treasure hunt map of the A&E area a few threads back. There was a men's locker room next to the female locker room on the A&E floor. There was also a pair of changing rooms in the basement - again one male and one female. I assume that this was the "dank basement" one of the nurses alluded to and said no one used. The men's changing room in the basement was about 3 times the size of the female one.

Needspaceforlego · 08/08/2025 12:28

I though it was the locker rooms that were 3 times the size of each other. The locker room was tiny about the size of a single bedroom

Lins77 · 08/08/2025 12:37

TimeForATerf · 08/08/2025 10:33

Take the piss behind his back about his pink bra and big girls' knickers maybe?

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Sad times.

OuterSpaceCadet · 08/08/2025 13:14

DeanElderberry · 08/08/2025 09:27

About 15 - 20 years ago (aka around the time the madness was starting) there was a suggestion from the Netherlands that women should be using urinals to save time. I couldn't work out how the practicalities would be addressed (apart from the sheer horror of being expected to pee in public). Of course I now know that wasn't a consideration.

More and more I think 'No Debate' was a slogan to counter 'Me Too',

I've used she wee devices a fair amount.

It's quite something to be able to relax enough to piss whilst standing up wearing clothes

I'd find that virtually impossible in a men's loo.

ConsultMe · 08/08/2025 14:04

BezMills · 08/08/2025 06:55

Lots of men aren't thrilled about using the men's toilets.

The smell, sticky floor, the social horror of correct urinal choice, shy bladder, drunks, aggression, unsolicited fashion advice, homophobia ... the list goes on.

It's just the way it is. We can't all just opt in to using the women's toilets because our user experience in the men's is sub par. You (royal you) just have to get in, have a pee, wash your hands and get out. Isn't it?

Edited

Women’s toilets aren’t any better than that though. I avoid public toilets like the plague given how awful most are.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/08/2025 14:44

Needspaceforlego · 08/08/2025 12:28

I though it was the locker rooms that were 3 times the size of each other. The locker room was tiny about the size of a single bedroom

When Fiona Wishart gave evidence, I saw the photo of the locker room and it was not huge but definitely larger than we first thought. It looked maybe 3 metres wide and much longer than it was wide.

Keeptoiletssafe · 08/08/2025 15:52

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/08/2025 14:44

When Fiona Wishart gave evidence, I saw the photo of the locker room and it was not huge but definitely larger than we first thought. It looked maybe 3 metres wide and much longer than it was wide.

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I don't suppose you can remember the toilet design off could you? From what I remember Upton talked about having a solution of totally private toilet cubicles (very much a hygiene risk as pathogen concentrations go up). They’re not as safe either. Just wondered what the toilet situation was - it sounded like a toilet cubicle within the locker room?

I am not surprised the nurses didn’t want to use the women’s changing rooms in the basement. Safety is always on women’s minds that’s it’s almost unconscious in decision making. It is scientifically proven we are constantly assessing our environment compared to men.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 09/08/2025 01:28

Keeptoiletssafe · 08/08/2025 15:52

I don't suppose you can remember the toilet design off could you? From what I remember Upton talked about having a solution of totally private toilet cubicles (very much a hygiene risk as pathogen concentrations go up). They’re not as safe either. Just wondered what the toilet situation was - it sounded like a toilet cubicle within the locker room?

I am not surprised the nurses didn’t want to use the women’s changing rooms in the basement. Safety is always on women’s minds that’s it’s almost unconscious in decision making. It is scientifically proven we are constantly assessing our environment compared to men.

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No, sorry. I could see one of the photos taken from about halfway up the locker side, pointing towards the door. The toilet cubicles were behind the camera, I presume. I could see the door straight ahead, next to it a bin, and the other side what they said was a shoe rack.

I was thinking as I looked at it that the room wasn't tiny, but I would find it very uncomfortable using a toilet that opened immediately into a (still not massive) changing room!

BeLemonNow · 09/08/2025 02:42

Imho changing room in the basement was irrelevant for the case as Sandie needed access to her locker and loos for period stuff.

I suppose Fife might argue generally Sandie could have used that CR knowing Dr. Upton was in the other one.

BeLemonNow · 09/08/2025 03:07

@EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin I had this view too, but I've come across a couple of transwomen who transitioned decades ago, have been getting on with their lives, avoiding notice as much as possible, and haven't been involved in the TRA ideological push.

Now they are worried about i.e. going out and having to choose which gender loo to use with possible issues in either. Or are no longer allowed whatsoever in some local women's sport. They were shit, it was fun and they weren't "taking medals" so people didn't mind.

I support single sex spaces and sports too, to be clear, but I do sympathise with some of those affected by developments.

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 09/08/2025 04:34

@BeLemonNow and these are arguably the people in the trans space worst damaged by this whole thing. Because of the massive overreach and violent approach of the people who wanted more, that calm acceptance of those who were respectful has been lost. Like you I know they exist as I’ve met them before.

anyolddinosaur · 09/08/2025 10:08

Upton could have used the womens changing room in the basement and not upset anyone.

Sport is not just about medals, there is also increased physical risk in any contact sport. It's open to those who are happy to play with men to run mixed teams, they just cant force non consenting women to play. However "nice" people are their presence opens the door for those who are less nice. I'm afraid my view is that no-one is "nice" if they were using wrong sex changing rooms.

KnottyAuty · 09/08/2025 10:14

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 09/08/2025 04:34

@BeLemonNow and these are arguably the people in the trans space worst damaged by this whole thing. Because of the massive overreach and violent approach of the people who wanted more, that calm acceptance of those who were respectful has been lost. Like you I know they exist as I’ve met them before.

Quite agree. Had people behaved in a sensible and respectful way the law clarifications and this pushback wouldn’t be happening. Stonewall has a lot to answer for - their advice and policies have been damaging to many. On the other hand even respectful TW in the numbers we are seeing now cant sustainably be accommodated in single sex spaces. It’s 1 in 70 for the under 25s - that rate needs proper dedicated accommodation