Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 10:29

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 09/08/2025 04:34

@BeLemonNow and these are arguably the people in the trans space worst damaged by this whole thing. Because of the massive overreach and violent approach of the people who wanted more, that calm acceptance of those who were respectful has been lost. Like you I know they exist as I’ve met them before.

I know the type too. My firm belief is that, though the GRA was bad law in principle, it could have been workable indefinitely if the numbers were very small, the process was strictly gatekept and we were mostly talking about people who behaved respectfully.

My friends who transitioned many years ago depended on a certain level of social acceptance, and that came from small numbers - we knew Joanna used to be John and didn't care because we knew and trusted Joanna. Trans activism, Stonewall Law and just increasing numbers turned out to shit the bed for them in the long run. I do feel a bit sorry for them, and I can even understand why they didn't say "not in my name" and risk becoming pariahs in their own community.

But it is what it is. We can't do a Bobby Ewing and pretend we're back in 2004 and nothing happened.

prh47bridge · 09/08/2025 10:29

KnottyAuty · 09/08/2025 10:14

Quite agree. Had people behaved in a sensible and respectful way the law clarifications and this pushback wouldn’t be happening. Stonewall has a lot to answer for - their advice and policies have been damaging to many. On the other hand even respectful TW in the numbers we are seeing now cant sustainably be accommodated in single sex spaces. It’s 1 in 70 for the under 25s - that rate needs proper dedicated accommodation

I suspect a lot of the under 25s are trans because it is fashionable or because they are gay and have been convinced that they are really trans. As the pushback against TRA overreach continues, I suspect the number of young people identifying as trans will fall.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/08/2025 10:31

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 09/08/2025 04:34

@BeLemonNow and these are arguably the people in the trans space worst damaged by this whole thing. Because of the massive overreach and violent approach of the people who wanted more, that calm acceptance of those who were respectful has been lost. Like you I know they exist as I’ve met them before.

I have a tiny bit of sympathy, but it is waning, because I also think, well why aren’t they all out here shouting “not in my name” at the TRAs who are making all sorts of noise?

DrPrunesqualer · 09/08/2025 10:33

It’s good news that the FA and now the Rugby league Union have dropped Stonewall.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 10:34

prh47bridge · 09/08/2025 10:29

I suspect a lot of the under 25s are trans because it is fashionable or because they are gay and have been convinced that they are really trans. As the pushback against TRA overreach continues, I suspect the number of young people identifying as trans will fall.

I think there will be a surge because it’s subversive and being “attacked” then gradually it will drop away. It isn’t as novel or fashionable any more.

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 10:41

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/08/2025 10:31

I have a tiny bit of sympathy, but it is waning, because I also think, well why aren’t they all out here shouting “not in my name” at the TRAs who are making all sorts of noise?

I think partly social pressure, in the sense that the old school trans community was very small and there was the risk of losing most of your social circle if you stepped out of line. I actually think there were more quiet sceptics than most people assume, but because they stayed quiet nobody knew how much scepticism there was.

And partly the assumption that transactivism was sweeping all before it, the terfs were a small and declining obstable, and they'd benefit from politicians and cultural figures and business leaders all wanting to be on the right side of history. That's what Stonewall told them after all.

And partly the assumption that growing numbers, especially in the younger demographic, meant safety in numbers and more social clout. They didn't think about bad actors or social contagion.

So their assumptions turned out to be faulty.

It doesn't take an enormous amount of courage to do a Debbie Hayton and say "these extremist loonies are undermining the social acceptance I rely on", but it takes a certain amount of courage, and I think lots will have seen that Hayton is considered the Great Coconut in trans circles and thought, no, I'm not bringing that on myself.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/08/2025 10:44

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 10:41

I think partly social pressure, in the sense that the old school trans community was very small and there was the risk of losing most of your social circle if you stepped out of line. I actually think there were more quiet sceptics than most people assume, but because they stayed quiet nobody knew how much scepticism there was.

And partly the assumption that transactivism was sweeping all before it, the terfs were a small and declining obstable, and they'd benefit from politicians and cultural figures and business leaders all wanting to be on the right side of history. That's what Stonewall told them after all.

And partly the assumption that growing numbers, especially in the younger demographic, meant safety in numbers and more social clout. They didn't think about bad actors or social contagion.

So their assumptions turned out to be faulty.

It doesn't take an enormous amount of courage to do a Debbie Hayton and say "these extremist loonies are undermining the social acceptance I rely on", but it takes a certain amount of courage, and I think lots will have seen that Hayton is considered the Great Coconut in trans circles and thought, no, I'm not bringing that on myself.

Indeed.

And if anyone sees all that and doesn’t immediately think, hmm, this is all a bit…culty, then I have some swampland in Florida to sell you.

NebulousSadTimes · 09/08/2025 10:44

@anyolddinosaur 10.08

Upton could have used the womens changing room in the basement and not upset anyone.

Apart from himself. He needs those around him to feel the fear, confusion, chaos and general unhappiness to thrive. Along with the fawning.

Needspaceforlego · 09/08/2025 10:51

prh47bridge · 09/08/2025 10:29

I suspect a lot of the under 25s are trans because it is fashionable or because they are gay and have been convinced that they are really trans. As the pushback against TRA overreach continues, I suspect the number of young people identifying as trans will fall.

Agreed its a fashion, its almost uncool to be a normal straight individual.

borntobequiet · 09/08/2025 11:00

I believe it’s falling out of fashion among the young because it’s pushed by the establishment, schools and so on. If anything is guaranteed to make teenagers rebel, it’s patent nonsense being promoted in assemblies by a preachy assistant head (I am a retired teacher, so well-informed on this).
Plus, many of the spokespeople for the movement are middle aged males, the polar opposite of brave and stunning, more like the relative you avoid at family gatherings as somewhat creepy.

moto748e · 09/08/2025 11:48

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/08/2025 10:31

I have a tiny bit of sympathy, but it is waning, because I also think, well why aren’t they all out here shouting “not in my name” at the TRAs who are making all sorts of noise?

Same. And I'm unconvinced how 'respectful' a caricature can ever be.

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 12:13

moto748e · 09/08/2025 11:48

Same. And I'm unconvinced how 'respectful' a caricature can ever be.

Me too. I suppose I'm thinking of the kind of OG transsexuals who were basically gay men who, because of whatever issues in their past, felt they could only be comfortable presenting in a female persona.

But it can only ever be an approximation of a presentation of female. It's the same reason I don't like effeminate as a description for camp gay men - what they're performing is a kind of alternative masculinity. I feel the same way about the TIFs or enby girls who might feel more comfortable if they accepted that they had a quirky offbeat femininity, because they can't actually be male.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/08/2025 12:32

prh47bridge · 09/08/2025 10:29

I suspect a lot of the under 25s are trans because it is fashionable or because they are gay and have been convinced that they are really trans. As the pushback against TRA overreach continues, I suspect the number of young people identifying as trans will fall.

I very strongly suspect that the "1 in 70" figure will include bisexuals and cross-dressers as well as gays (but not lesbians because Stonewall had no interest in them except as bigots who didn't pander to girl-dick foolery), since Stonewall were so determined for so long that anyone not absolutely 100% straight hetero (apart from lesbians) was trans.

Quite a lot of these 1-in-70 must have been born since Stonewall started its unsane crusade, or have no memory before the nonsense got going. And quite a lot of them will have been going through the normal adolescent stage of crushes on their own sex, which quite often level out after a bit and move on to something else, when they got snared by the fashion. I just hope none of those have had irrevocable damage done to their bodies.

moto748e · 09/08/2025 12:35

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 12:13

Me too. I suppose I'm thinking of the kind of OG transsexuals who were basically gay men who, because of whatever issues in their past, felt they could only be comfortable presenting in a female persona.

But it can only ever be an approximation of a presentation of female. It's the same reason I don't like effeminate as a description for camp gay men - what they're performing is a kind of alternative masculinity. I feel the same way about the TIFs or enby girls who might feel more comfortable if they accepted that they had a quirky offbeat femininity, because they can't actually be male.

We're a million miles away from the days of La Cage Aux Folles now.

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 12:42

moto748e · 09/08/2025 12:35

We're a million miles away from the days of La Cage Aux Folles now.

Pretty much.

I feel the big hurdle to overcome will be left-leaning millennial women. I sometimes watch movie reaction videos on YouTube and when a cross dressing male character appears there's a depressingly regular response of "Woo! You go girl! Be your authentic self!"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:44

I agree, it’s younger millennials and older gen Zs.

SionnachRuadh · 09/08/2025 12:47

It's really funny when they watch Life of Brian and that scene we all know turns up... they clap their hands about how progressive and ahead of the times it is, then go very quiet when it turns out Stan/Loretta is the butt of the joke.

KnottyAuty · 09/08/2025 15:39

prh47bridge · 09/08/2025 10:29

I suspect a lot of the under 25s are trans because it is fashionable or because they are gay and have been convinced that they are really trans. As the pushback against TRA overreach continues, I suspect the number of young people identifying as trans will fall.

Agreed.

But the 1 in 70 figure is worth saying again and again because it’s not a “vanishingly small problem” that women should stop fussing about. The numbers are hard facts that speak for themselves.

KnottyAuty · 09/08/2025 15:45

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/08/2025 12:32

I very strongly suspect that the "1 in 70" figure will include bisexuals and cross-dressers as well as gays (but not lesbians because Stonewall had no interest in them except as bigots who didn't pander to girl-dick foolery), since Stonewall were so determined for so long that anyone not absolutely 100% straight hetero (apart from lesbians) was trans.

Quite a lot of these 1-in-70 must have been born since Stonewall started its unsane crusade, or have no memory before the nonsense got going. And quite a lot of them will have been going through the normal adolescent stage of crushes on their own sex, which quite often level out after a bit and move on to something else, when they got snared by the fashion. I just hope none of those have had irrevocable damage done to their bodies.

The 1 in 70 for the under 25s comes from the Scottish census figures. The question was about trans identity and was separate from the questions about sexual orientation. The headline percentage is still 0.44% of population when averaged out because the figures are more like 1 in 900 for over 50s

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/08/2025 15:52

Thanks! So self-reported and with no actual action required by the person ticking that box.... I vividly remember being under 25 and deliberately twisting the tails of the old fogeys in ways like that which cost me nothing and caused them confusion.

And even the 1-in-900 figure doesn't specify what is meant by "trans". Mostly because that is something we have never been allowed to ask about, and which is deliberately left vague by trans organisations and TRAs. Does it include bi? A fair few bi I have come across would say it does. Does it involve more than slap, a skirt and uncomfortable shoes? Many I have known would assert that it doesn't. (Would Danny la Rue be defined as trans these days? How about Joan of Arc? How about a man with a beard in a kilt?)

nauticant · 09/08/2025 15:54

I'm a dog with a bone with this link but here's how things stood before the insane gender stuff took over:

How common is gender dysphoria?

According to the DSM-5, among individuals who are assigned male at birth, approximately 0.005 percent to 0.014 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Among individuals who are assigned female at birth, approximately 0.002 percent to 0.003 percent are later diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Because these estimates are based on the number of people who seek formal treatment—including hormone therapy and gender confirmation surgery—these rates are likely an underestimate.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/conditions/gender-dysphoria

I think it's from around 10 or more years ago. I thought I'd learn more if I went on the Wayback Machine but when I did I found that This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine. That does happen with some ideologically impure articles although I'm unsure if that's the reason here.

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 09/08/2025 16:09

and Dr P here would dispute even that 1 in 2,000 figure

https://x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755

OP posts:
DrPrunesqualer · 09/08/2025 16:15

DeanElderberry · 09/08/2025 16:09

and Dr P here would dispute even that 1 in 2,000 figure

https://x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755

Dr P ? Do you mean me 🤣

Any chance of a screen shot as I can’t open the link 🙏.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 09/08/2025 16:18
life of brian loretta GIF

A fun last post

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread