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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

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32
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 11:39

SionnachRuadh · 03/08/2025 10:04

I don't know Rory Stewart, but we have some mutuals, and I must confess one of the biggest laughs I had this year was Rory complaining bitterly about the Trump administration defunding Mrs Rory's project explaining conceptual art to peasants in Afghanistan.

Sometimes I wonder if Rory is real or if a satirist invented him, like this "Zack Polanski" character Sacha Baron Cohen has been playing.

This post 🧑‍🍳

Needspaceforlego · 03/08/2025 12:18

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 03/08/2025 10:21

A source told Scotland on Sunday the total bill could amount to £700,000 - and likely even more, as that sum would exclude any remedy made in Ms Peggie’s favour should the health board lose its case. NHS Fife has confirmed it had already spent £258,000 on legal costs for the tribunal as of the end of June.

Bloody hell! That’s taxpayers money that NHS Fife has wasted! Some of that should be docked from a few salaries

My word!
Based on the £250k to end of June, I'd guessed it would be double by now.
Fife only really seemed to have JR on the case

Sandie had NC, CE, her solicitor, the senographers and the forensic guy!
How much is Sandies bill??? It must be more

Thanks for the kindness and the generosity of her phenomenonal backer. There has been absolutely no penny pinching or cost cutting on Sandies behalf.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 03/08/2025 12:26

SionnachRuadh
Sometimes I wonder if Rory is real or if a satirist invented him, like this "Zack Polanski" character Sacha Baron Cohen has been playing.

My brother has often said that he thinks John Buchan invented Rory Stewart back in 1916 and called him Sandy Arbuthnot. I have to admit that, having read all those Hannay books in my teens, I can definitely see a resemblance! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Arbuthnot

RethinkingLife · 03/08/2025 12:29

It was interesting that Jimmy Doyle made a point of saying how self-censored he was at Harvard (paraphrasing).

“But I haven’t been able to speak frankly with anyone for c 5 yrs, & it’ll be hard to forget the spectacle of this nation’s ‘intellectual élite’ enforcing moral auto-lobotomy as a condition of entry to polite society”

https://x.com/jdoyleDoyle1/status/1944737166862512258

https://x.com/jdoyleDoyle1/status/1944737166862512258

Arran2024 · 03/08/2025 12:34

DustyWindowsills · 03/08/2025 08:25

That episode was a shocker. It has seriously dented my respect for him and for TRIP.

To be fair, the big offender was Alastair Campbell, whose attitude was "My partner and daughter say that GC women are just a bunch of horrible old bigots, and that's all I need to know."

Rory Stewart at least went through the motions of putting forward the GC view. His hands are tied by the fact that he's a professor at Yale, and he doesn't want to damage his reputation or income. I was feeling generous towards him. But then he said he has a friend who prescribes puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones. ☹️ He really needs to stop relying on AI to do his homework for him.

Alastair Campbell is friends with the Kinnocks, who have a trans child (ftm). He cited this child in his support of trans rights. And I bet that just about everyone in these well off circles which revolve around media, politics, fashion, academia knows someone with a trans child.

They can't think independently on this issue - it is part of belonging to the group to support it.

I saw Alice Roberts speak at Richmond theatre a few years ago. The audience was largely on the elderly side and she told us how they sex a skeleton without any reference to possible trans issues. I guess she could see that her audience wouldn't be impressed if she went down the trans line - but of course she has been pretty vocal elsewhere....

myplace · 03/08/2025 13:57

Excellent quote from Susan in the Times-
“The lines that [NHS Fife] were running were really sexist, very regressive,” Susan Smith added. “Which is ironic in a case where they don’t know what a woman is. They know what a woman is when they want to put her in her place.”

myplace · 03/08/2025 14:01

I’m getting really angry about these luxury beliefs, being enforced top down on ordinary people.

It’s clear that the ‘lived experience’ and the evidence of your own eyes of ordinary people comes second to the ideology of the liberal elite.

I never thought I’d type that sentence! I probably should land among that cohort- I certainly did when I was younger- but cannot keep putting ordinary people’s needs behind virtue signalling.

TheLoudPoet · 03/08/2025 14:16

Roberts is a respected academic in her own field, an excellent populariser of archaeology and so on, but like many academics who are recruited purely as presenters outside her immediate field, she has to rely heavily on the line she is asked to spin by the producers, who themselves may be putting forward an unbalanced view by an opinionated or arrogant expert or group. She is used to acting as a distributor of others’ views without question.

A classic example was her presentation of some highly-debated hypotheses about the origins of parts of Stonehenge a few years ago. The authors of the relevant speculative papers in the archaeological literature presented their dodgy conclusions to the producers, who tidied away any uncertainties in the writing and editing and stuck Roberts up like a puppet to parrot out the story. It was presented, quite ridiculously, as not only “new and exciting”, but worse, true. Roberts knows as well as any research academic that such things are just best current guesses and assumptions, but that doesn’t fly on the telly. Bit of a devil’s bargain if you want the visibility.

What could she have done to avoid this… of course she could have said no in the first place (and she may routinely do so to barmy programme ideas all the time for all I know), or could have “done the research” and taken issue with the ideas as presented - which might have earned the wrath of the producers and harmed her career as a presenter.

I’m certainly not damning her. The structure of programme-making is often flawed, for sure. Ultimately of course dodgy ideas which lack further support will disappear, so perhaps she's content that things will self-correct in time, as that is inevitable in science. And her visibility as a professional academic benefits not only her, but her university and the field itself.

Whether this “excuses” her lack of support to scientifically-supportable GC views is debatable. Remembering she is a university academic, so has been immersed in the miasma of gender woo via staff and students for ten years. She probably doesn’t fancy being the next Stock or Phoenix.

I read Rory Stewart’s book and was very impressed. Perhaps the usefulness of people like RS is to tell us accurately what political systems are actually like on the inside, rather than tell us how things might be changed.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2025 14:46

Roberts doesn't bring the gender woo into her presenting - that's done entirely on her own time.

borntobequiet · 03/08/2025 14:58

myplace · 03/08/2025 13:57

Excellent quote from Susan in the Times-
“The lines that [NHS Fife] were running were really sexist, very regressive,” Susan Smith added. “Which is ironic in a case where they don’t know what a woman is. They know what a woman is when they want to put her in her place.”

Susan Smith is phenomenal.

Here she is on Woman’s Hour

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0WcTM_9J30

KeepTalkingBeth · 03/08/2025 15:50

myplace · 03/08/2025 14:01

I’m getting really angry about these luxury beliefs, being enforced top down on ordinary people.

It’s clear that the ‘lived experience’ and the evidence of your own eyes of ordinary people comes second to the ideology of the liberal elite.

I never thought I’d type that sentence! I probably should land among that cohort- I certainly did when I was younger- but cannot keep putting ordinary people’s needs behind virtue signalling.

It's interesting isn't it? I would probably call myself liberal elite but have been fiercely gender critical since at least 2018. Like many here I feel that the left has left me.

I think it takes a certain kind of person to behave the way Rory Stewart and Dr Alice Roberts do. What is it? Lack of empathy? Lack of intellectual curiosity? No self-questioning? There's fear of cancellation, misogyny, arrogance and class snobbery but I think there's also a clear intellectual failure at work in this phenomenon.

I hope someone can explain it better than I am!

PrettyDamnCosmic · 03/08/2025 15:52

TheLoudPoet · 03/08/2025 14:16

Roberts is a respected academic in her own field, an excellent populariser of archaeology and so on, but like many academics who are recruited purely as presenters outside her immediate field, she has to rely heavily on the line she is asked to spin by the producers, who themselves may be putting forward an unbalanced view by an opinionated or arrogant expert or group. She is used to acting as a distributor of others’ views without question.

A classic example was her presentation of some highly-debated hypotheses about the origins of parts of Stonehenge a few years ago. The authors of the relevant speculative papers in the archaeological literature presented their dodgy conclusions to the producers, who tidied away any uncertainties in the writing and editing and stuck Roberts up like a puppet to parrot out the story. It was presented, quite ridiculously, as not only “new and exciting”, but worse, true. Roberts knows as well as any research academic that such things are just best current guesses and assumptions, but that doesn’t fly on the telly. Bit of a devil’s bargain if you want the visibility.

What could she have done to avoid this… of course she could have said no in the first place (and she may routinely do so to barmy programme ideas all the time for all I know), or could have “done the research” and taken issue with the ideas as presented - which might have earned the wrath of the producers and harmed her career as a presenter.

I’m certainly not damning her. The structure of programme-making is often flawed, for sure. Ultimately of course dodgy ideas which lack further support will disappear, so perhaps she's content that things will self-correct in time, as that is inevitable in science. And her visibility as a professional academic benefits not only her, but her university and the field itself.

Whether this “excuses” her lack of support to scientifically-supportable GC views is debatable. Remembering she is a university academic, so has been immersed in the miasma of gender woo via staff and students for ten years. She probably doesn’t fancy being the next Stock or Phoenix.

I read Rory Stewart’s book and was very impressed. Perhaps the usefulness of people like RS is to tell us accurately what political systems are actually like on the inside, rather than tell us how things might be changed.

Alice Roberts is a qualified doctor who worked as an Anatomy lecturer. She taught embryology. She bloody well ought to know the differences between a woman & a man in a dress.

thoughtsonlondon · 03/08/2025 16:06

KeepTalkingBeth · 03/08/2025 15:50

It's interesting isn't it? I would probably call myself liberal elite but have been fiercely gender critical since at least 2018. Like many here I feel that the left has left me.

I think it takes a certain kind of person to behave the way Rory Stewart and Dr Alice Roberts do. What is it? Lack of empathy? Lack of intellectual curiosity? No self-questioning? There's fear of cancellation, misogyny, arrogance and class snobbery but I think there's also a clear intellectual failure at work in this phenomenon.

I hope someone can explain it better than I am!

A clear understanding of which way their bread is buttered?

I suspect both are earning more from podcasting/presenting than they would have earned in politics/academia

IDareSay · 03/08/2025 16:12

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Upton Sinclair

For salary read income, kudos, invitations to dinner parties etc etc etc....

Needspaceforlego · 03/08/2025 16:14

myplace · 03/08/2025 14:01

I’m getting really angry about these luxury beliefs, being enforced top down on ordinary people.

It’s clear that the ‘lived experience’ and the evidence of your own eyes of ordinary people comes second to the ideology of the liberal elite.

I never thought I’d type that sentence! I probably should land among that cohort- I certainly did when I was younger- but cannot keep putting ordinary people’s needs behind virtue signalling.

I totally agree it's a luxury thing.

Can you imagine some kids on a rough council estate deciding that they were going call themselves Beth and start using the girls facilities they'd get the absolute piss taken out them.

Or even Pete the Plumber deciding he was rocking up in a dress to work and was now Patsy?
He'd be lucky to have a job next week!

KeepTalkingBeth · 03/08/2025 16:18

Greed of course! Another factor in the "lobotomy" quoted upthread. It doesn't really endear you to these characters, does it?

myplace · 03/08/2025 16:26

It isn’t just this one belief. It’s all the ones the left is currently refusing to meet the eyes of.

The impoverishment of our young adults, the shortage of housing and medical care. Schools.

It feels as though money is being spent on worthy stuff that doesn’t actually address inequity.

That said, the high streets are heaving with people in cafes, and the roads are full of expensive cars. Maybe I’m just having a pessimistic day.

ConstructionTime · 03/08/2025 16:39

"Secret Diary of Dr. Beth Upton" - by boswelltoday:
https://nitter.poast.org/boswelltoday/status/1951630813025452178#m

RethinkingLife · 03/08/2025 16:39

IDareSay · 03/08/2025 16:12

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Upton Sinclair

For salary read income, kudos, invitations to dinner parties etc etc etc....

I don’t recollect which thread but someone posted a piece by CS Lewis about exclusion and inclusion and the seductive allure of being invited to be part of The Inner Ring.

It felt relevant to this.

WearyAuldWumman · 03/08/2025 16:39

The Courier today:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5299799/sandie-peggie-beth-upton-chaos-nhs-fife/

'New NHS Fife emails uncovered by The Courier can reveal the operational chaos caused by the Sandie Peggie and Beth Upton feud.
Health board chiefs wanted to ensure the nurse and the trans doctor would not work together again following the Christmas Eve 2023 changing row at Kirkcaldy’s Victoria Hospital – the catalyst for this year’s high-profile employment tribunal in Dundee.
And documents submitted to the tribunal lay bare the challenges bosses faced to keep them apart, including several near misses, after Ms Peggie returned from her controversial suspension.
Ms Peggie is suing NHS Fife and Dr Upton over claims she was sexually harassed and discriminated against.
‘Almost impossible’
NHS Fife staff immediately recognised the altercation between Ms Peggie and Dr Upton, born male, would cause staffing headaches during what was already a difficult period.
Esther Davidson, interim clinical nurse manager, admitted it would be “almost impossible” to stop them from crossing paths, according to HR officer Jacqueline Herkes.
In an email dated January 3, 2024, just over a week after the row, Ms Herkes said suspending Ms Peggie should be a “last resort”.

Sandie Peggie – a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy, arrives at the employment tribunal in Dundee. Image: PA
Other options were floated, including putting the Glenrothes mum on dayshifts or temporarily moving her to another department.
But Ms Herkes was unimpressed after being given advice* *that the A&E nurse should be suspended.
She wrote: “I reiterated our staffing crisis and how it was ludicrous to have a nurse at home, two nightshifts a week”.
Return to work
Ms Peggie’s suspension meant NHS Fife didn’t need to worry about her encountering Dr Upton for months.
However, rota problems soon surfaced when Ms Peggie was told on March 7 her suspension would be lifted.
It was initially proposed that the Victoria Hospital nurse should be moved onto dayshifts to be “supported” by senior staff.

Senior nurse Esther Davidson. Image: NHS Fife.
“I contacted HR on Thursday of last week, to get their take on her return,” said Ms Davidson, one of two line managers Ms Peggie had.
“They felt it was entirely reasonable for her to return and be supported on days, when there is senior staff available, this is also the feeling of both senior charge nurses and myself.”
But Ms Peggie was unwilling to do this, saying she would have to continue working nights for personal reasons.
NHS Fife service manager Charlotte Myles wrote to the A&E medic on March 28 saying a risk assessment determined she should not work at the same time as Dr Upton.
She would resume nightshifts after four weeks as part of a “phased return”.
But Ms Peggie wrote to Ms Myles saying: “I explained why this was so challenging for me and I must state that I do not accept that the conditions imposed by NHS Fife for my return to work are fair or necessary.”
The Fife nurse raised these concerns with her lawyer.
‘Compromise’ found
NHS Fife bosses managed to accommodate both staff members by moving Ms Peggie on to weekend nightshifts.
And on April 2, Ms Myles said a compromise was possible “as long as we can provide senior support” within the emergency department.

Dr Kate Searle arriving at tribunal in Dundee. Image: Steve MacDougall/DC Thomson.
She then asked Dr Kate Searle, Dr Upton’s boss, for a copy of Dr Upton’s shifts before expressing her support for the trans doctor.
Ms Myles added: “We can accommodate SP’s return to work so that Beth will not be on shift at the same time and there will be no opportunity in which SP will have contact with her.
“I fully appreciate your concern, and I am also here to support Beth during this time.”
Dr Searle replied: “Sandie should not be in the department at anytime Beth is, especially at the start/end of shifts ie. Changing room times.”
Near misses
Even after reaching a compromise, Ms Peggie and Dr Upton nearly ended up on the same shifts more than once due to rota mix-ups.
Emails sent by the doctor on September 30 last year reveal two “close calls”.
On the first occasion, Dr Upton was informed at less than 24 hours notice it was “not safe” to work a nightshift because Ms Peggie was down for a shift.
“This caused me a lot of anxiety especially as it was so short notice and hadn’t been noticed by my supervisor, but by one of the senior nurses,” Dr Upton wrote.

Dr Beth Upton. Image: Kenny Smith/DC Thomson.
“It also obviously disrupted my schedule and routine.
“I discussed this with my supervisor who was apologetic and resolved to find any further issues.”
A search by senior staff revealed another shift where the two had been rota’d to work at the same time.
Dr Upton said: “I have had an email from the rota coordinator who took me off the shift but is now asking me when I would like to rearrange the ‘missed’ night shift for.
“Being honest, I am a bit perturbed by this.
“I acknowledge I’m contracted to work a certain number of shifts but I find it difficult to accept that I need to disrupt my schedule to rearrange the shift given that the reason I didn’t work is nothing to do with me.
“It’s unclear if the other person has been asked to swap but given the ongoing legal and internal processes I can understand why the department is reluctant to engage her on this.
“I’m not sure whether this is something I should just accept in this instance and raise later, or whether I should be a bit more stern about it.”
It’s not known when Ms Peggie – currently absent from work – is likely to return.
Tribunal costs
As of June 30, the employment tribunal has already cost NHS Fife more than £258,000.
It’s expected this will have increased significantly during the second round of hearings between July 16 and July 29.
More than a dozen NHS Fife staff members – without even counting Ms Peggie and Dr Upton – have appeared at the tribunal.

Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Murdo Fraser. Image: Shutterstock.
Mid Scotland and Fife Tory MSP Murdo Fraser said the resources the health board had dedicated to the case were “unforgivable”.
“Every day more detail emerges about the failures of NHS Fife in the Sandie Peggie case,” he told The Courier.
“For a cash-strapped health board to waste so many resources defending the indefensible is unforgivable.”
A verdict for the tribunal is not expected until at least December.'

NHS Fife emails reveal how keeping Sandie Peggie and Beth Upton apart caused chaos

Senior health board staff agreed the nurse and trans doctor would not work together again despite admitting this was “almost impossible”.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5299799/sandie-peggie-beth-upton-chaos-nhs-fife/

SionnachRuadh · 03/08/2025 16:46

On the first occasion, Dr Upton was informed at less than 24 hours notice it was “not safe” to work a nightshift because Ms Peggie was down for a shift.
“This caused me a lot of anxiety especially as it was so short notice and hadn’t been noticed by my supervisor, but by one of the senior nurses,” Dr Upton wrote.

Jesus. What an absolute shower.

Lins77 · 03/08/2025 16:50

DU always looking like a very shady character in these pics with the scarf hiding his face.

DeanElderberry · 03/08/2025 16:56

The comic thing about Alice Roberts is that with her Humanist hat on she has been always been deeply committed to bigoted intolerance and a totally blinkered refusal to learn anything about the nuances of religious belief and practice.

But her commitment to genderwoo has obliged her to act as irrationally as any other religious believer. Her own intentional limiting of her thinking has made it impossible for her to understand what she has become.

An unpleasant woman imo, but very (unintentionally) funny.

thoughtsonlondon · 03/08/2025 17:01

SionnachRuadh · 03/08/2025 16:46

On the first occasion, Dr Upton was informed at less than 24 hours notice it was “not safe” to work a nightshift because Ms Peggie was down for a shift.
“This caused me a lot of anxiety especially as it was so short notice and hadn’t been noticed by my supervisor, but by one of the senior nurses,” Dr Upton wrote.

Jesus. What an absolute shower.

Really not clear how they expected him to cope with working in A&E.

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