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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/07/2025 22:50

Remember India Willoughby on live tv advocating for barbed wire in the channel to pierce holes in boats carrying migrants? Prime racism from him, perhaps we can paint other Transwomen with the same brush? 🤔

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:52

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:47

I've posted elsewhere on the racist jokes mosques element, other than to add that I hope Sandie isn't "struck off" for her comments.

I would hope that she is expected to access some remedial training and reflection, assuming that is she hasn't mistreated patients or staff.

Along with the rest of NHS Fife. You do wonder about how Dr Upton treated that elderly patient who referred to him as ‘son’.

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:54

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:45

That was early in transition days so probably initially true

What has changed? His February photos still look like a bloke.

I don't want to get too personal, even though I don't approve of Dr. Upton, but they had a receding hairline mentioned when working and my impression is they looked more male.

I agree Dr. Upton still looks male now, although of course I already knew that so there is a bias. I don't know if they may have been taking hormones that take a while to feminise features.

I would guess that if I saw Dr. Upton now I would identify them as a transwoman that is to say a biological male who is presenting as "gender" female and may be taking cross sex hormones.

The latter to be clear is of course none of my business.

It's very relevant as some transwomen don't use female changing rooms unless they "pass" and whatever you think of that concept it's clear Dr. Upton didn't at the relevant point.

NebulousPhoneNotes · 29/07/2025 22:54

SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/07/2025 22:50

Remember India Willoughby on live tv advocating for barbed wire in the channel to pierce holes in boats carrying migrants? Prime racism from him, perhaps we can paint other Transwomen with the same brush? 🤔

Did he? I didn't know this. Fucking hell. He's such a piece of work though I'm not surprised.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 22:56

India Willoughby has been racist directly to women on Twitter - thought this was common knowledge, from some years ago.

EmeraldRoulette · 29/07/2025 22:57

@Appalonia "I'm repulsed by the cruel jokes Sandie shared. I don't know anyone who would share such things, or think they were funny."

thank you for saying that. I was beginning to feel like a total loon. I've obviously had racial slurs directed at me but I'd not thought so many people would be fine with everything that's been uncovered. (I accept not relevant to the case).

but yeah....thought provoking stuff here. Grim. Utterly utterly grim.

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:57

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:47

I've posted elsewhere on the racist jokes mosques element, other than to add that I hope Sandie isn't "struck off" for her comments.

I would hope that she is expected to access some remedial training and reflection, assuming that is she hasn't mistreated patients or staff.

Quite. NHSF might need to up the entire training budget this year!

Appalonia · 29/07/2025 22:58

SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/07/2025 22:50

Remember India Willoughby on live tv advocating for barbed wire in the channel to pierce holes in boats carrying migrants? Prime racism from him, perhaps we can paint other Transwomen with the same brush? 🤔

There's so many of them who have said and done appalling things. But being trans magically whitewashes it. Paris Lees violently attacked an old man ( who subsequently died ). But he's currently got a BBC drama based on his life!

EmeraldRoulette · 29/07/2025 22:58

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:57

Quite. NHSF might need to up the entire training budget this year!

I don't think you can train anyone out of racism.

moto748e · 29/07/2025 23:00

EmeraldRoulette · 29/07/2025 22:58

I don't think you can train anyone out of racism.

It's gone from "pretty much OK" to "not OK" in a generation.

JanesLittleGirl · 29/07/2025 23:00

As we sift through Sandie Peggie's testimony and pick apart the evidence of casual racism, her opposition to illegal immigration, her uncertainty about her daughter's lesbianism, we should also remember that she is the woman who said "No".

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 23:01

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:36

Were Pete’s feelings ever discussed?

Well no but how do any of us know whats really going on in Beth's head?

Is she getting a kick out of seeing women change and invating their privac
Or
Is she struggling with mental illness, struggling with how her body looks like someone with anorexia?

Appalonia · 29/07/2025 23:02

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Internaut · 29/07/2025 23:02

Jellycatspyjamas · 29/07/2025 19:35

She's beyond awful. Hopefully gets a minimal payout.

She doesn’t need to be a nice person, someone you’d have a drink with, or go on holiday with. I’ve been very vocal about my views on her racism - and I stand by my comments, there’s no place for racism in the caring professions.

She does, however have the right to privacy and dignity in the workplace. She does have the right to be treated fairly in accordance with workplace policies and employment law. She does have the right to recourse through the tribunal system, to a fair hearing and - if it finds in her favour - the right to fair compensation.

No matter what your view of her may be, she has had a long career in nursing, which is going to be very hard for her to continue with. That was the case long before issues of racism were raised - the level of vitriol directed at her would make it hard for her to continue in nursing.

Would I want her caring for me and mine? No. The same could be said for every medic involved in this case. Does she deserve to have her career ended because of her taking them to tribunal? Absolutely not. Does she deserve to have her career ended because of racism? Possibly, but that’s not the question for this tribunal.

I hope she wins. I hope whatever award is made is enough to have made this shit show worthwhile. If she does I’ll raise a glass in her honour.

What you don't take into account is that, if she succeeds, and if any award has to take into account what she has lost as a result of the events she complains of, then they have to do an honest assessment of that loss. If the reality is that she wouldn't have stayed anyway because of her racism, then she has lost very little.

Rhaidimiddim · 29/07/2025 23:03

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 22:34

Don't forget nobody was happy with Pete the Plumber in the scenarios.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

So what actually is the difference between Pete and Beth other than the name?

Exactly!

NC demonstrated, everyone thought Pete was a bad 'un.

Even when Pete sez he's a woman, they all clocked him as a bad actor.

But none of them could say what the difference was between Pete and Theodore.

NebulousPhoneNotes · 29/07/2025 23:03

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 22:56

India Willoughby has been racist directly to women on Twitter - thought this was common knowledge, from some years ago.

I didn't know that but I'm mutual blocks with India and frankly steer away from any reference to him. I don't want to give him any attention whatsoever. I knew he was awful and had been cruel, that was enough.

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 23:04

@EmeraldRoulette I don't think most regular posters are, there's a few people who have popped up to "defend Sandie" but most didn't. I We just posted disappointment and disappeared for a bit.

It's worth remembering as well the "Halo effect" that everyone tends to see someone as good generally / bad generally. It's hard to integrate new information, and this came late in the tribunal process after Sandie had been cleared. (Edit. In the internal investigation).

There are of course relevant concerns like the extent racist jokes convert into racist treatment/ class differences and whether such info is private.

TheKeatingFive · 29/07/2025 23:06

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 23:01

Well no but how do any of us know whats really going on in Beth's head?

Is she getting a kick out of seeing women change and invating their privac
Or
Is she struggling with mental illness, struggling with how her body looks like someone with anorexia?

If it's the second, why couldn't he have changed in a unisex / private changing room? Hmm

thenoisiesttermagant · 29/07/2025 23:07

Agree with PP who said it's unfair SP had her personal private messages (in a group of 7) used in court but the court did not ask for analysis of Upton's phone which was far more relevant to the questions at hand in the court case e.g. whether the patient safety allegations were made up.

I also agree his personal private chats are likely to be worse.

I also have this question - which is more racist:

  • a horrible racist 'joke' forwarded by SP and seen by 6 other people in a private chat which SP in court apologised for.
  • An institution which forces all Muslim women to undress in front of men if they wish to remain employed, to share toilets with men, which will not honour Muslim women's request for single-sex care (Upton has said he would not), and which almost certainly also has 'female/women's' toilets and 'female/women's' wards that are in fact, by stealth and against the law mixed sex. Therefore depriving all Muslim women of the single sex spaces that many would say their religion demands and meaning that a Muslim women could walk into any of these spaces labelled as female only and encounter a man such as Upton in a state of undress or indeed that Upton could walk in on them in a state of undress.

I honestly think the scope for harm to Muslim women is far greater by Fife refusing to respect the right of women to request single-sex care. I would hazard a guess there has probably already been such harm, just of course women are scared to speak up - look what happens when you do.

Conxis · 29/07/2025 23:07

Sorry if this has already been covered but I’ve not completely caught up today.
Would Sandie not already be aware her post was being opened by the state of the envelopes?
Or was the inference that post was not being passed on to her?

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 23:07

@EmeraldRoulette also I don't like to keep mentioning it but I am mixed race part Pakistani and made the comments about being trainable/redeemable. I'm not naive bout racism.

ExitPursuedByABare · 29/07/2025 23:09

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:21

Pretentious I am, yes but reminded me of the Hollow Man quote

"This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper"

And most of them seemed pretty hollow.

The rest is silence …..

Internaut · 29/07/2025 23:09

SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/07/2025 22:50

Remember India Willoughby on live tv advocating for barbed wire in the channel to pierce holes in boats carrying migrants? Prime racism from him, perhaps we can paint other Transwomen with the same brush? 🤔

Why would we do that?

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 23:10

TheKeatingFive · 29/07/2025 23:06

If it's the second, why couldn't he have changed in a unisex / private changing room? Hmm

Again I'm not on Dr. Upton's side here but they seem to genuinely believe they are a woman and want to live as one. There is no suggestion of any personal depravity. The opposite in fact, theres testimony that they weren't looking at anyone changing etc and said they'd prefer it if there were single cubicle changing rooms for everyone.

Rhaidimiddim · 29/07/2025 23:11

Bannedontherun · 29/07/2025 22:39

Had to fast forward, as i was on catch up from 6pm today.

Watching Foran analysis on this from yesterday JR has to show Sandie is an out and out bigot, who was not motivated by a man in a woman’s changing room at all. JR is trying to show that the only reason she objected to DU in the CR was because she is also transphobic, and therefore was targeting DU.

Hence the character assassination.

Foran was, as of yesterday, of the view that JR had not succeeded in her attempt to make that link.

Today we heard Sandie Pegg’s testimony, which i felt was honest and further undermines JR attempt to show that she was motivated by transphobia.

It was not surprising to me the type of language SP used. It is still common, in the place where live.

I was brought up (in a none university educated background) which i would describe as well off working class.

in addition i had an irish grandmother, and an adopted first cousin who was Chinese

i recall wanting a gollywog doll when i saw one at seven and my dad explained why no.

We moved up north in my formative years, and i distinctly remember in the late seventies being on a school bus where teens were singing a song on the way home that the teachers did not prevent

that went

come to Birmingham in the sun

The N word outnumbers you 10 to one…….

it has not gone away, and people, who unlike me had diversity, carry on hard baked ideas in to adulthood.

i feel there is a bit of pearl clutching on here.

as feminist we need to have open discussions about this but elsewhere.

I feel Sandie may well have been on a personal journey about some of her values.

i feel she stood up today and was just honest. Be that difficult to hear.

BUT LEST WE FORGET SHE PUT HER HEAD ABOVE THE PARAPET FOR HER, AND OTHER WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND SUFFERED GRAVE PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES.

AND HAS RUN THE GAUNTLET OF PUBLIC SCRUTINY FOR ALL OF US, AND OUR DAUGHTERS MUTUAL BENEFIT.

SHE HAS DONE SOMETHING THAT NONE OF US, HERE HIDING OURSELVES IN ANONYMITY HAS DONE.

AND FOR ME SHE REMAINS A SHERO.

AMEN!

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