NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Yes he did…was very pleased with himself too, thought he had said something amusing. He’s an awful prick.

And if they do genuinely believe they are a woman - and personally I doubt they do - then that IMO is good reason why they certainly should be attending as a psych consult. as they've been doing.

If he actually had any idea what 'living as a woman' was like, he'd stay a million miles away from their safe spaces away from men.

What the hell is with women pleading for these predatory men? He's abusive.

He didn't leave when Sandie needed to change her clothes due to menstrual flooding and she asked him to.

As a biological woman I'd leave if a woman asked me to in that situation so she could change privately. Most women would. Any decent human being would.

He's either got a fetish or is just a nasty bully that enjoys humiliating his victims in my opinion.

It's been clear for a while this wasn't the closest changing room to where he was working and other changing rooms were available to him. Whereas as revealed today Sandie did actually need to be in that CR as that's where her clean clothes were.

Or is the expectation that she was to be ritually humilated by Upton by having to collect her clean clothes then walk to the next available CR whilst the flooding and staining got worse?

WTAF.

Many women don’t want a male mammographer because they find it too intimate a procedure from a man, not because they are “afraid” or think the man will be less than professional.

Having witnessed the huge shift in public attitudes in my lifetime, I’d have to disagree.

The obvious answer to that is- don't do something that you can be hanged for. If you hold racist views which you are happy to express in groups of people, don't be surprised if that fact becomes known.

@NebulousPhoneNotes I entirely agree. Dr. Upton's testimony about treating a patient who'd requested a woman was shocking.

That of course includes psychiatric patients who may i.e. have been raped and only feel safe discussing it with a woman.

I can't see how trans can be compatible with working in medicine unless they are "out".

I.e. you might ask a receptionist who has never seen them if Dr. Upton is female and be told yes as that's what's down on the system.

Edit:.just to add as I'm sure you are aware treatment without informed consult is assault, plain and simple.

I do wonder how any of the burn the witch comments re racism, and I totally agree that the posted 'jokes' were absolutely awful, are made by people of entirely white heritage virtue signaling. She clearly needs to have a big think and some training, that's not disputed, and I hope she's learned a lot by listening to it read out to her. But is she the worst person in the room? No. And is the SSS a separate Issue? Yes.

But the bottom line is how can anyone tell the difference between a male with a body problem and a male with a fetish?

Simple you can't.

If body dismorphia is really a thing, it must always have been a thing, how did these males cope 50 years ago?

He shouldn't be in there either way.

Don't forget he was making notes on women who refused to get changed while he was in there stripping off. Proper weirdo behaviour, the guy is a total creep.

Just to be clear, Sandie's forwarding of a racist 'joke' was not on social media. It would not have been seen by any patients had not Lindsay backstabber made everyone aware of it as an attempt to destroy Sandie. It was to a very small group of people SP had good reason to believe were friends - wrongly as it turns out.

If an HCP writes on X they hate all Jews, or whatever, then they deserve to be struck off as patients will see this and all HCPs have a high enough standard of education to understand everyone can see a social media post. It's creating a hostile environment for patients.

I do agree now Lyndsay backstabber, who released patient information to her friends, has released this info it may make it difficult for SP to return to her job but she wasn't posting on social media. It was a private message.

I would bet good money there is vile stuff on Upton's phone but the Judge didn't allow looking at this so was very unfair to allow the stuff about Sandie in. He seemed biased towards Upton in his decisions over these two potential sources of evidence. He also let JR wang on about pronouns when that issue had already been decided by the court. I don't have a good feeling about this Judge. We'll see. Presumably he can't somehow magically make the 1992 workplace regs not apply to hospitals though and Fife have lost on that alone.

Personally, I think that’s as every bit as awful as the meme SP shared. As were the many TRAs rejoicing over the death of Magdalen Berns. As you know they did.

If you're a TERF, how happy would you be with a Dr Beth?

If you're being treated by Dr Beth, given what he said under oath about the irrelevance of biological sex in determining treatment, and his need for you to go along with his delusions, how happy would you be, whoever you erre?

A lot of racism is born out of ignorance. And yes, people can and do change. Maybe not the hardcore racists, but most are not that.

Apologies if this has been covered somewhere in the previous 47,000 messages, but I saw it mentioned that whichever side loses, they will appeal. I understand that an EAT judgment provides a precedent unlike an ET, and of course, if Sandie were to lose I can see the attraction in going for that. But do we really know that if NHSF lose, particularly if there is a damning judgement, that they will spaff yet more taxpayers money up the wall on an appeal?

I have a feeling he’ll kick that can down the road. The argument that Fife’s policy was unlawful in permitting these men to use female spaces will need to be heard in a higher court than the ET. I think there is enough wiggle room in the law for him to fudge it.

I would bet good money there is vile stuff on Upton's phone but the Judge didn't allow looking at this so was very unfair to allow the stuff about Sandie in.

They're not equivalent though @thenoisiesttermagant . It wasn't the case of the judge allowing Sandie's phone to be searched and messages taken from it directly.

I think the judge should have ordered Upton's phone to be forensically examined.

I don't think that the racist meme messages were relevant and I don't think the judge should have ordered those. I think they should have been separated out from any messages referencing Upton, which the judge was right to allow.

But they aren't comparable, they're two separate situations.

NHSF weren’t interested in SP’s racism and only raised a disciplinary process related to transphobia for which she was cleared. She wasn’t going to be sacked so I don’t understand your conclusion.

Can we keep Southport out of it, today of all days, please? Really not great to bring it up in this context on the first anniversary.

It's like that question the trans activists ask to try to get sympathy, about what if you woke up and your body had changed sex, how would you feel, would you still feel like a man/woman?

Maybe instead they should ask, what changing room would you now use? I bet they wouldn't like the answer most people would give.

I also think it's very interesting, but possibly telling, that Fife don't see racism in their policies and actions around single sex spaces.

For them it's all about ideological purity. Men are the top of the tree, especially those with special identities. Is it any surprise to anyone Muslim women are not even considered in their decision to let Upton walk into women's spaces where women may be undressed and vulnerable? And seem entirely unfazed by his statement in court that he wouldn't step aside for any woman who requested single-sex care because he thinks his inner feelings matter more than their consent (I assume).

They are racist towards Muslims and other faiths who require single sex spaces. They are denying these patients and HCPs appropriate spaces for changing / toilets / wards. This is institutional racism which will affect far more patients than anything SP has said or done (and she has had no complaints).

The others involved were more overtly racist than Jade, and got away with it mostly.

I think racism has got worse though I'm
old enough to know it's the pendulum
swing etc

I've been naive, I don't think anyone here has, but I feel a right plonker

when whispers of racism were initially
linked to the Trump hotel promo, I just thought it was the usual Internet batshittery

I didn't think for a minute that there was anything to be suspicious of. 🤦🏽‍♀️

Anyway, I noticed a few posts talking about what's normal round their way. I'm curious to know where that is although I realise no one wants to out themselves, I'm just wondering.

I was hoping to go to Scotland next month. Better cross that one off the list. Sounds like I'll be as welcome as a... giant couscous salad on this thread?! 😂

and that is not something I ever ever thought I would say. Never thought I would worry about visiting somewhere in the UK for that reason.

Sorry, I'm just waffling on cause I'm quite shocked still. Defenders on here, defenders on X, all saying "it's jokes" or "dark humour", saying they'd love to have a drink with her.

Time for a stiff drink or three for me - and bed, I think.

The thing is, I’ve been wondering if we might have to acknowledge a paradox here. On balance, I think the women that we think of being as lovely and kind with no skeletons in their private chats are more likely to either be happily accommodating of Beth (think Dr I’m kind Curran ) or, at the v least, not going to object but will suffer in silence like other NHS Fife female staff.

Someone who is willing to say ‘no’, to be that bit confrontational and maybe a bit combative and doesn’t back down - under these specific circumstances - might have to be someone with rough edges.

Please note that I’m not that I’m defending or excusing her copying and pasting racist so called jokes. But it crossed my mind that it might take someone like SP to say something to DrU who occupies a higher social status in the hospital. As SP said, others v likely were unhappy but would silently put up with it.

Plus, IMO there’s no way DrU really believes they’re female. That is delusional. They wanted to be treated as female whilst knowing they’re male and keeping their lower half clothes on in the CR and turned away from the others. As NC pointed out in February, IMO a lot of TW transgenderism it is as much a form of control and exerting dominance over women as it might be something else.