NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

It's unfortunate that absolutely nobody involved in this has come out of it looking good. Racism, falsification of evidence, extreme mismanagement, inability to know what one's own sex is, etc etc. Sad times.

Has anybody come away from this untarnished? Emma from Sex Matters, maybe. Jim Borwick perhaps, stray exclamation marks notwithstanding. Anybody else?

From your one post i can honestly say given a choice between you and Sandie I'd rather spend a week in Benidorm with Sandie over a week anywhere with you.

Based on personal experience, the Vic has been a shitshow for years. After my dad died there in 2011, I found out that their elder care had been castigated by the inspectorate.

Most of us don't care what trans people wear or what they do, provided they understand they aren't women and stay out of women's single sex spaces, inc sports, women's posts and prizes.

But especially single sex space Men are bigger, stronger and do pose a risk. Women are more aware of that risk than ever.

If single sex spaces weren't important we just wouldn't have them. You'd have men and women sharing wards, changing rooms, etc all over the place.

On that we can agree

I apologise in advance for posting this without having read several pages of this thread but I heard an interesting explanation about JR's legal argument on Michael Foran's Substack.

People in the chat were asking why the judge had allowed all the evidence and hearsay about racism and homophobia to be aired since it was irrelevant to Sandie's claim. MF said that this was because JR was arguing that there was no detriment to SP in Upton using the changing room. (You have to prove a detriment as well as the less favourable treatment.) In support of this she will argue in submissions that the SC judgement does not apply to changing rooms or toilets and only to gender-balancing of public boards in Scotland, so it is still at least an open question as to whether Upton counted as a woman or not. JR says he is, so if Sandie Peggie, a general bigot and transphobe according to JR, took offence at and was outraged by Upton's presence in the changing room, it was due to her bigoted views, and therefore her objections are not reasonable. Other women wouldn't have minded - this is another point she kept trying to hammer, that only Sandie minded.

So that was MF's explanation which I am sure is a correct summation of what JR's arguments will be when she puts forward her submissions. However...I still cannot understand why JR was allowed this latitude, given this is such a pathetically weak line of argument. It may be correct in a technical sense that FWS was originally about nominations to boards, but the judgement itself clearly said that in the EA2010, under which Sandie brought this action, sex was biological and Upton is a man.

If single sex spaces weren't important we just wouldn't have them. You'd have men and women sharing wards, changing rooms, etc all over the place.

And if TRAs actually believed that sex is a nebulous dog whistle, this is what they'd campaign for. Spaces that are not designated male or female at all, just one big open inclusive space for all. Either as a third option or as a full replacement for all single sex spaces. If they actually believed that sex was such a difficult and nebulous concept.

They don't, of course, because they know full well that sex is real and easy to determine in well over 99% of people. They want to keep the single sex spaces purely so people of the wrong sex can be affirmed by using them.

Charlotte Elves?

I guess I was thinking witnesses, but yes, Charlotte Elves has done well. And Jane Russell has not covered herself in glory.

@GirlsInGreen

Do you have a link for this?

Interestingly I saw a funder for a woman NHS worker who is of Muslim faith & is bringing her case on 1) religious discrim 2) philosophical belief 3) disability (PTSD) in a similar scenario to Sandie - will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

Yes I see your points entirely…and understand why you would feel that way. Although I’m perfectly happy in a communal toilet, I don’t honestly feel wholly comfortable changing even in front of women. And totally agree with you re sports.
But there have been transphobic views expressed by some. And I can’t support a racist.

The name she is using is Faye Russell-Caldicott. She has a crowd justice page and is is in dire need of help. Google that name and "Single-sex facilities at work".

You don't have to support the racism but women's rights are not a reward for being a good enough person. We don't say that all women have a right to change and shower away from male people except for those who have ever shared a racist joke. You are not supporting the individual, you're supporting the principle and the rights that apply to all women.

The judge doesn't want his judgement appealed, especially not on procedural grounds. If he stopped Fife's scorched earth approach and then found against them, they may have been able to appeal on the basis that he was biased and/or stopped them presenting their case properly. A successful appeal would mean that the whole case would be back to square one - all the evidence would have to be reheard by a fresh tribunal. By giving them plenty of latitude, he has probably taken away any chance they may have had to appeal on procedural grounds, so their only possible appeal would be on points of law, i.e. arguing that the judge had applied the wrong law or misinterpreted the law.

How late in the day can counsel bring new evidence to a tribunal? The WA group seemed to find very very late. Surely they need to allow the opposing team time to scrutinise new evidence.

As a woman, SP is entitled to use women only spaces. All women are, whether tall or short, kind or mean, racist or not, rich or poor, heels or trainers. Men are not, regardless of their kindness or on point styling.

It really is as simple as that.

Speaking of simple, I had every intention of making the courgette pickles linked several times, and as there are about ten threads to search through I have little chance of finding the recipe. Did anyone keep it to hand? 🙏🏻

Correct! Womens rights are not a negotiable in relation to our performance in other areas of life.

Ultimately, whether SP or any other woman would have been comfortable changing amongst men is moot:

— all the women were required
under law (Workpkace Regs) to be provided with a female only changing room, whether they wanted it or not.

— The same women had the experience pre Upton of the female CR being female only. They were never given express notice that this female only changing room would no longer be female only or pro-actively provided with an alternative female only provision.

— When SO complained about this to her managers, she had the right under law to have her grievance properly considered and responded to. They didn’t happen.

— When SP was disciplined, she had the right to a fair disciplinary procedure. That didn’t happen, at least not at first.

All of the above are legal requirements/ proper employment practices that apply to any employee regardless of whether she cares about the sex of who is in her CR or not.

MF did say that, and I suppose if NHS Fife do appeal on the law, then at least the inevitable EAT judgement that their lord- and ladyships' reasoning does not only apply to gender-balanced boards will be binding and hopefully that sort of questioning will not be permitted in future.

Given the abusive post you made to women here on an earlier thread, you’ve got quite the brass neck thinking anyone here is hanging on for your important take on anything.

Apparently they had the witnesses LN and FW on their list already but the actual messages were not disclosed to the Claimant's legal team until last week.

Yes I saved the link https://www.browneyedbaker.com/zucchini-refrigerator-pickles-recipe/

By now it's the first suggestion that comes up when I type a b into the address bar of the server
https://www.browneyedbaker.com/zucchini-refrigerator-pickles-recipe/

Thank you! I have saved it properly now. I’ll be back in a pickle shortly!