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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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MyAmpleSheep · 30/07/2025 12:55

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:34

If they both lose, could he bring a case against Fife saying he took the guidance they gave him and therefore the losses he incurred and his unlawful use of the CR is Fife's fault?

As he's also a respondent, could he be made to pay SP damages personally if she wins?

I imagine damages will be split between a portion of “joint and several” which DU and NHSFife have to pay together (and which in effect NHSFife will pay) and a portion which only NHS Fife will have to pay. I think that’s what happened in Forstater.

I think it’s very unlikely that DU will have to pay anything from his own pocket.

RegimentalSturgeon · 30/07/2025 12:56

Afraid I’m laughing at that one.

Disclosure: I am not a Scot. Or an Aussie.

BezMills · 30/07/2025 13:00

Deadcog · 30/07/2025 12:48

Porridge W- get off at Paramatta too

You really found that funny?

yeah it was just so ludicrous I found it funny. I know that the bare word has a really bad history in Australia and in the UK and it's not a word I've ever used except when telling this story. It just wasn't in our vernacular growing up (other similar terms already discussed in threads passim definitely were).

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 13:03

lcakethereforeIam · 30/07/2025 12:20

What effect do you think all this will have on Peggie's claim against the RCN? I suspect the judgement will be out before anything happens with that, unless the RCN concede.

Sandie and her backer will want their day in court.
I'd be willing to bet, that taking these cases as far as possible to get legal precedence is part of the conditions in Sandie getting financial backing.
Its not just about Sandie its about ALL women and girls.

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:05

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:37

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

I expect most patients don’t realise Upton is trans - they just think he is a bloke with long hair.

If he's the medic that I glimpsed at A&E, I recall wondering - there was a pony tail plus some eye make-up. (Mascara and eyeliner, I think.)

I was attended upon by other people and he disappeared (presumably off-shift) shortly after I got there.

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 13:15

BezMills · 30/07/2025 13:00

yeah it was just so ludicrous I found it funny. I know that the bare word has a really bad history in Australia and in the UK and it's not a word I've ever used except when telling this story. It just wasn't in our vernacular growing up (other similar terms already discussed in threads passim definitely were).

I didn't think it meant the same thing in Australia. An Aussie friend used it once and I was both horrified and puzzled because the racist meaning didn't make sense in context. Turns out it meant a bug, as in an illness (he said, anyway). I was also surprised because as well as everything else, it's just also very dated (but he is older).

GreenFriedTomato · 30/07/2025 13:17

SadSadTimes · 30/07/2025 11:48

But why would you laugh at someone obviously being racist? If she disapproved half as much as she was letting on in the court she would have posted a very different reaction indeed.

She laughed because she was joining in.

Maybe..but wasn't the laugh reaction banned here because people were using it sarcastically..
To indicate that they found someone's post ridiculous or stupid?
I'm not defending Lindsay because she seems like a backstabber, but the laugh react at 'sorry if that makes me racist' could have been 'yes you are, you ridiculous racist woman! Unlikely but possible.

I know I've laugh reacted at some of the Reddit crowd on here. Not because I found their posts funny, but because they were pathetic

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 13:22

GreenFriedTomato · 30/07/2025 13:17

Maybe..but wasn't the laugh reaction banned here because people were using it sarcastically..
To indicate that they found someone's post ridiculous or stupid?
I'm not defending Lindsay because she seems like a backstabber, but the laugh react at 'sorry if that makes me racist' could have been 'yes you are, you ridiculous racist woman! Unlikely but possible.

I know I've laugh reacted at some of the Reddit crowd on here. Not because I found their posts funny, but because they were pathetic

Yes, I think that was her explanation - laughing because it was so ridiculous of SP to imply she might not be a racist after posting those "jokes". I do see it tbh.

But I don't think any of it is relevant to the case.

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 13:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 12:39

I agree, I doubt she’s popular with that group now she’s dragged all of them into it (including herself and her patient data breach), having their private messages shared, whatever they think of SP.

Could you imagine it? I think you’d be mightily careful around anything to do with LN now.

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:29

EmeraldRoulette · 29/07/2025 23:38

I think racism has got worse though I'm
old enough to know it's the pendulum
swing etc

I've been naive, I don't think anyone here has, but I feel a right plonker

when whispers of racism were initially
linked to the Trump hotel promo, I just thought it was the usual Internet batshittery

I didn't think for a minute that there was anything to be suspicious of. 🤦🏽‍♀️

Anyway, I noticed a few posts talking about what's normal round their way. I'm curious to know where that is although I realise no one wants to out themselves, I'm just wondering.

I was hoping to go to Scotland next month. Better cross that one off the list. Sounds like I'll be as welcome as a... giant couscous salad on this thread?! 😂

and that is not something I ever ever thought I would say. Never thought I would worry about visiting somewhere in the UK for that reason.

Sorry, I'm just waffling on cause I'm quite shocked still. Defenders on here, defenders on X, all saying "it's jokes" or "dark humour", saying they'd love to have a drink with her.

Time for a stiff drink or three for me - and bed, I think.

I'm not defending any of the racism at all. I did post about my experiences about one of the previous threads.

I worked near SP's place of work at one point. I currently live in Fife.

I haven't seen what the mosque comment was that was made by SP, so I've no idea whether the following is of relevance.

I can tell you that I see mixed comments on local social media about the mosque being built a stone's throw from the Vic.

There's a great deal of controversy about it - it's been a work in progress for some years now and some locals think that the incomplete building is an eyesore. (Yes, they would say the same about other buildings and there are complaints online about buildings which have been neglected/abandoned, etc.)

At one point, those in the process of building the mosque wanted to build 4 flats for imams and for rent before completing the mosque. This was knocked back by Fife Council, given that the public were upset about the unfinished building. This was 2022. The people in charge of the application withdrew it after the council refused.

I recall that the build has been going on for 13 years.

I had an obviously foreign surname prior to marriage and was working in Fife at the time. The one fellow-worker who made a comment along the lines of "When did you come to the UK?" wasn't a local - he was English. I have a very Fife accent.

I gave him my time and date of birth.

BezMills · 30/07/2025 13:29

As for the relevance to the tribunal I just don't see it. Yes I see the point of painting Wee Sondie as a rank bad yin but since none of the chat info was known to the officers in NHS Fife, it cannot have affected the fairness or not of how she was treated - which is the actual thing which the tribunal must decide.

It seems to be more a tawdry attempt to blacken her name than anything related to the law and facts of the case.

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:33

Christinapple · 30/07/2025 01:44

SP hatefully threatened a mosque, laughed at large numbers of people dying in a foreign tragedy, calls LGBT people "weirdo" and "it" and admits to using hateful racial slurs.

Yes I can honestly say I don't do any of that.

She threatened a mosque? I wasn't aware of that.

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 13:33

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:34

If they both lose, could he bring a case against Fife saying he took the guidance they gave him and therefore the losses he incurred and his unlawful use of the CR is Fife's fault?

As he's also a respondent, could he be made to pay SP damages personally if she wins?

The tribunal will order damages. If it finds against both Fife and Upton, I would expect them to state how much is awarded against each of them. However, I suspect Fife have indemnified Upton and will cover any damages awarded against him. If that is the case, I don't think he will have any losses that he could use to sue Fife. The tribunal cannot prevent Fife from covering Upton's share of any damages.

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:35

"One witness for NHS Fife & Dr Upton's side stated that Sandi Peggie said she wanted to post bacon through their letterbox. That witness has shown herself to not be credible, to possibly to have a personal agenda / vendetta against Sandi Peggie.
She did not report the comment at the time, nor was she particularly clear with her memory of the alleged incident.
The bacon through the letterbox comment was instead attributed to a male paramedic later in the tribunal.
Who ever said it, it was a horrible thing to have said, but saying and doing are different things.
Point 1 is not relevant to the tribunal."

Thank you, @BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels

GreenFriedTomato · 30/07/2025 13:36

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:33

She threatened a mosque? I wasn't aware of that.

It's not exactly as apple describes- no suprise. It's claimed that she said she had a mind to post bacon through the letter box of the mosque. Sandie stated she can't recall ever saying this and that this comment was actually made by a paramedic.

Lougle · 30/07/2025 13:39

I genuinely don't understand how people can say 'I don't think I'd be friends with SP' or 'She's a horrible person, but...'

How could you know? You've seen a tiny piece of her behaviour.

I am a Christian. I have friends who are Christians. I have friends who are not Christians. I have friends who would say that to be a Christian is to engage in fantasy. It causes no issues because we respect that we have differing views. I am GC. I have friends who aren't. I have a transgender friend. I just don't discuss my GC views. I have friends who think differently to me on the subjects of abortion, politics, etc.

SP shared some jokes which were definitely racist. Whatever she did, she was going to look bad. If she had said 'oh I'm so sorry', people would have said she's only sorry because she was caught, she's not really sorry, she's hypocritical. If she said she stands by her behaviour, she's abhorrent. At least by telling the truth, she's showing integrity.

Are we going to start interviewing women on points of character before we decide if they have a right to expect the law to be upheld?

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 13:40

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:33

She threatened a mosque? I wasn't aware of that.

She says it was someone else who joked about posting bacon to the mosque.

Honestly she cant be that racist or she wouldn't have worked in a Pakistani owned shop.
And someone up thread mentioned she treated her ethinic father with dignity and respect.

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 13:41

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:33

She threatened a mosque? I wasn't aware of that.

And, starts world wars too! We know this courtesy of the ‘evidence’ put forth in the tribunal.

BezMills · 30/07/2025 13:41

@WearyAuldWumman I was at the Vic last September, I'm curious how I totally missed a giant eye-sore. (I walked up from the train station)

It's not that near the hospital, it's the guts of a mile on foot, and 1000m as the crow flies, but in completely the wrong direction for me to have walked past it.

I've been at the crem a bit too often these last years, and never noticed it from the car at all. I'll definitely keep an eye out for it if I'm in the area, I'm very curious to see it now!

I remember when they built a big mosque next to the University, it was finished while I was there, I think. I popped in for a nosey around, I'm nosey like my mum before me!

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 13:43

Fife were determined to dig up dirt they have dug to the found it.
I'm slightly surprised that the judge allowed them to go so far of course to dig up dirt

It certainly doesn't help other women to come forward when they are upset about their legal rights being trampled all over.

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 13:45

I’ve read a fair few of the posts on this long running thread and it’s been really helpful. I’ve gone from being seriously angry at the transphobia to a position of kind of understanding where some of you are coming from.
And whilst I don’t agree with you, I can see that some of you are coming from a place of fear and a genuine desire to protect the safety of women….which I applaud, even if I personally feel it’s misguided or disproportionate. I do now see that for some, the idea of changing in front of a trans woman or vice versa is an unacceptable position to be put in. And that protecting our hard fought for rights is important.
Would it be too much to ask, that you also try to see and understand the opposing view?
It seems to me that if I put myself in the shoes of someone supporting SP, I would now see her for what she clearly is. A racist transphobe who has played her cards brilliantly. She holidayed in Benidorm 🤣- hardly a place known for people who are easily offended. But that’s besides the point I suppose.
Her employer has acted appallingly, and deserves to lose on incompetence alone.
I support the trans community, as the vast majority of them are wonderful people who have faced more hate than you or I could ever know. Some trans women are not good people. Some men are not good people. Some of every group are not good people.
But to the people still applauding SP, when she is clearly an awful, racist woman….shame on you. She has furthered your cause, but at what cost to humanity

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 13:45

BezMills · 30/07/2025 13:29

As for the relevance to the tribunal I just don't see it. Yes I see the point of painting Wee Sondie as a rank bad yin but since none of the chat info was known to the officers in NHS Fife, it cannot have affected the fairness or not of how she was treated - which is the actual thing which the tribunal must decide.

It seems to be more a tawdry attempt to blacken her name than anything related to the law and facts of the case.

Yes and also an attempt to deflect from the incompetence and lawbreaking of the NHSF board and its senior consultants and heads of nursing plus of course Dr U.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 30/07/2025 13:48

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 23:10

Again I'm not on Dr. Upton's side here but they seem to genuinely believe they are a woman and want to live as one. There is no suggestion of any personal depravity. The opposite in fact, theres testimony that they weren't looking at anyone changing etc and said they'd prefer it if there were single cubicle changing rooms for everyone.

Why is he wearing a bra?

That’s a type of behaviour we’re all familiar with on here…but it’s verboten to mention it.

PinkTonic · 30/07/2025 13:51

Thank you for the effort that has gone into these threads and the commentary.

I’ve struggled to keep up and have not been able to participate due to work deadlines. I’m particularly grateful for the signpost to Michael Foran.

My takeaways are that NHS Fife has behaved egregiously and that their legal representatives should face sanctions.

What a glaring and shocking example of why women don’t report male abusive behaviour.

Upton is a man and his presence in the changing room with non consenting women is sexual harassment. Even without the fact of wearing women’s underwear, which makes it exhibitionism.

I stand with Sandie. I stand with women.

sanluca · 30/07/2025 13:51

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 13:33

She threatened a mosque? I wasn't aware of that.

And so the lies continue and women are shown that if you ever complain of sexual harrasment, anything you ever say or did will be put into a negative light or blown out of proportion (1 forwarded message with racist and offensive jokes means you are racist to the core) and on top of that people get to lie about you (she didn't make the bacon comment) and even if you deny, the lies will be repeated all the time.

Shame on Christinapple for continuing to attack women like this. But most will know the agenda Chris has as a transactivist.

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