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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 12:00

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 11:09

I'm hesitant on that one. Assuming SP wins, I would expect the panel to find that Fife is primarily responsible. However, Upton stated that he knew some women were uncomfortable with him using the female changing room but he used it anyway. There is also evidence that he invented the patient safety concerns and attempted to falsify evidence to the tribunal. If I had to make a prediction, I would go for the panel finding against Upton, but I am not confident about that.

@prh47bridge - same. I've lost it in the mist of confusion but do you remember JR pointedly saying to a witness re NhsFifes policy "with no thought to Dr Uptons feelings"?
The comment was aimed at Fife & not Sandie, games afoot I thought - setting the scene for Upton to bring a claim against Fife.

BackToLurk · 30/07/2025 12:00

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 11:35

Some people turn up at a&e without good reason, do you want everyone to live in fear of ever saying no you dont actually need to be here?

That exactly my point about how racial and prejudice bias can enter the system. If a Pakistani Muslims mother's concern about their daughter is dismissed and goes onto even die that's not in of itself evidence of racial bias.

And they might not even realise that is a factor as there will be others like A&E being busy.

You can quickly Google how health outcomes are worse for ethnic minority groups to see how serious an issue this is. I would hope, as it interacts with feminism and sexism for all women, that it would have been better understood in this forum.

Sandie clearly has strong prejudice against Pakistani Muslims which as well are a pretty small minority in Fife. It's not just jokes it's hatred so strong she's been reported and doesn't know if she said she wanted to post bacon through the letterbox of a new mosque at a work lunch.

So yes she very well may act on racist beliefs such as Pakistanis are dishonest and shouldn't be over here etc. etc and treat them less favourably.

I am assuming you are White and would really ask you educate yourself on racism before dismissing these concerns.

I think part of the point is she hasn’t been reported, has she? It hasn’t been mentioned officially before this tribunal. It certainly has t been acted upon.

The not remembering the bacon comment is less clear. It seems that someone else said it earlier. She may well have said “like John said that time we should post bacon through the letterbox” or she could have said “God, do you remember when John said about putting bacon through the letterbox”. Either way it’s an odd comment to just make out of the blue.

More generally I’d have thought that even if no one reported her for racist remarks in a social situation, you would think if it impacted her behaviour toward patients someone would have mentioned it. I get your point about not knowing but over 20 years you’d surely see a pattern. And tbh it looks like there were people who were quite happy to lie say that SP endangered patients due to her attitude toward DU, so I’d expect if her behaviour was so bad something would have happened sooner.

Ultimately our public and private services are, unfortunately, going to have staff with some horrible opinions. You can’t realistically police those, you can only police behaviour.

lcakethereforeIam · 30/07/2025 12:01

Re. LN and FW and their private chat. Even it was perfectly innocent it shows how thick they were with each other. FW wasn't in the WhatsApp. I wouldn't be surprised if they had been 'chatting' before they appeared at the tribunal. They were friendly enough to make lunch plans.

It seems LN has two gay sons? I still believe part of the reason she behaved as she did must be because she was influenced by them.

I've often observed a sort of compartmentalisation, or even cognitive dissonance, in people's views. I see it in feminists who not only believe twaw, which is their right, but in their behaviour towards women who say twanw. I think something similar might be at play in people like SP. They can see the humanity in the person in front of them, who they're treating, who they've been trained to help. If it's happening on a TV screen or a newspaper report it's more abstract. Black humour, 'jokes' the person suffering is never going to hear may seem to them to be cruel but ultimately harmless. If there had been a collection at the hospital for the flood victims I like to think she'd have stuck some money if. If only to assuage a guilty conscience.

I've probably posted stuff about Upton I'd be unlikely to say to his face. If he and I were walking near to each other and he fell, I'm sure I'd ask if he was okay and offer whatever assistance I could. Couldn't guarantee there wouldn't be a misgendering though.

DrPrunesqualer · 30/07/2025 12:03

Firealarms · 30/07/2025 08:09

As her views have never impacted her work I doubt there’s anything they can do.

I disagree - you are missing the context. Firstly, if a patient had concerns about SP - presumably they would complain to another staff member or to the hospital directly. In context, SP’s colleagues do not like her. Even her closest friends at work turned against her. In context, her employer/NHS hospital do not want her to remain working there, there has been a relationship breakdown where they are at an employment tribunal. SP is also suing her union, so they likely won’t help her if new issues arise.

Therefore if a patient raises concerns about SP, they likely would be upheld with no goodwill shown to SP. The patient wouldn’t be told “tough” or “you don’t have the right to choose”. Instead the NHS would be noting down these occurrences to show that SP cannot remain working there and eventually sack her.

Without evidence of wrongdoing in the workplace you can’t sack someone

NotAtMyAge · 30/07/2025 12:04

Internaut · 30/07/2025 00:37

In evidence, SP came out with some lines that are straight out of the Reform hit list, particularly in relation to immigrants. She seems to accept the line they pedal uncritically. As those are views she genuinely holds, I question whether she would have held back indefinitely from making them pretty obvious in the workplace, just as she couldn't hold back from publicising her views about transpeople being "weirdos".

Given Reform's standing in the polls it's obvious she is very far from alone in holding these views, however much we might disapprove of them and there is not a shred of evidence that she brought them into her working environment. As far as trans-identified people are concerned, she referred to one single man as a weirdo. Not a kind thing to do, but not actually a sacking offence.

SerafinasGoose · 30/07/2025 12:11

NebulousDog · 30/07/2025 11:01

Just in case anybody is missing TT, they are going to be reporting from the Good Law Project’s application for a Judicial Review of the EHRC’s interim update following FWS judgment. They can’t live tweet, so they’ll just be reporting during the breaks.

If Maugham's doing it, judging by his track record I doubt whether it's much of a threat to anything the SC might have said. The tenacity is admirable, though, and shows just how determined this lobby is never to cease its assault on women's rights. It's that issue which is at the crux of this ET, not the curved balls thrown by JR as to SP's private views. On reflection the fact that proceedings ended with SP's recall to testimony provides a stark contrast between her behaviour and that of her corrupt employer. Her views are unpalatable, but honest. NHSFs are equally unpaletable, but less transparent and obfuscated at every time by what seem to be very dubious means.

The whole thing is the usual legal tactic of providing a distraction when you have no other weapons. One instance (involving several messages) in 7 years, and a 30-year unblemished record tends to suggest that had SP taken this attitude into the workplace this would have revealed itself somehow and she would have been disciplined. Jokes about tragedies are commonplace, don't tend to discriminate, and are certainly not to my taste - but their very tastelessness is the reason some find them funny, if you like that kind of thing.

SP's racist language is something else, and I'd actively avoid anyone I heard using those terms. But it's extremely lazy thinking to believe a person only deserves recourse to justice when they are completely 'pure' in thought, word and deed (an impossibility). The purity spiral discussion is a distraction, as JR intended - and yes, as I was growing up the shop descriptor was common parlance but not inevitable. My father, for all his misogyny and other unpleasant views, did instil the right values in his kids as far as racism was concerned. We were taught that it was deplorable, and if he'd heard us use that term under our roof we wouldn't have sat down for a week. Whether I'd have responded differently under a different influence I can never know - but I like to think not.

Incidentally, no UK citizen can be a 'Trump Supporter' - amongst the laziest, more trite objections I've heard to SP. Barring diplomatic influence - which these days is not in our country's interests - Trump has no political power in the UK; and UK citizens have no vote in the US. It's an empty epithet.

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:12

We need to look with painful honesty at why Reform are so popular right now. It's easy (and lazy, and self serving) just to think "because loads of people are just thick racists unlike wonderful, progressive, liberal me". It might be true. I'm pretty sure, though, that it has at least something to do with some views, such as "men can't be women and sometimes that matters", being loudly and performatively dismissed as far right (not even centre right!) and fascist and all that. Keep doing that and people are going to wonder what's so wrong about being far right. I struggle to see the difference anyway when the left smothers dissent, gaslights people over reality and enforces Newspeak and penalties for thoughtcrime.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 30/07/2025 12:13

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 11:52

She obviously handed them over to JR or JR / Fife wouldn't have known about them.

She obviously didn't think it through or that NC and Sandie would already have gone through that group chat with a fine tooth comb.

I think JR should have looked after her witnesses a bit better. I don't think any of her witnesses have come out the other end of a Naomi grilling spotlessly clean.

Absolutely. NC has managed to show what happened to SP was an NHS Fife witch-hunt. Time lines don’t match up. Evidence share & tweaked. No notes of meetings. No risk assessment. Uptonogood gets taken crying by senior staff to car. Senior staff blubbering on witness stand. Far too many ‘can’t recall ‘ ‘can’t remember’. Far too much classism demonstrated at Fife.

And now a culture of fear at Fife. Witch hunting clearly continues.

An absolute waste of taxpayers money for a man (doctor) in the nurses changing room.

DrPrunesqualer · 30/07/2025 12:13

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 11:09

I'm hesitant on that one. Assuming SP wins, I would expect the panel to find that Fife is primarily responsible. However, Upton stated that he knew some women were uncomfortable with him using the female changing room but he used it anyway. There is also evidence that he invented the patient safety concerns and attempted to falsify evidence to the tribunal. If I had to make a prediction, I would go for the panel finding against Upton, but I am not confident about that.

He should definitely be investigated by the GMC re at the least patient safety.
There were thousands of complaints to them after his bombshells at his questioning

SirChenjins · 30/07/2025 12:14

DU is a man who openly admitted that he would tell patients he was a woman and would only stop treating them if they actually told him to stop. He also used a female changing room and stripped to his pants and a bra (ffs) even though he knew it upset some women using it and that he had mo legal right to do so. He also refused to leave the cr and give a woman the dignity and privacy she told him she needed.

I think 'weirdo' is actually very restrained. If a condition of my NHS contract (according to my managers and in breach of the law) was that I had to change my clothes in his presence my description of him to my friends would be less polite.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/07/2025 12:16

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:39

Well ChatGPT are still predicting a win for Peggie even taking into account the racist jokes.

They estimate compensation between 100-200k as long as loss of future earnings is granted. Without that then likely to be between 50-100k.

A reminder that ChatGPT is not a crack team of legal analysts; it is a fancy version of your phone's predictive text.

lcakethereforeIam · 30/07/2025 12:20

What effect do you think all this will have on Peggie's claim against the RCN? I suspect the judgement will be out before anything happens with that, unless the RCN concede.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 30/07/2025 12:23

This case has probably given Reform candidates no end of quotes to use in campaigning.

UpDo · 30/07/2025 12:24

DrPrunesqualer · 30/07/2025 12:13

He should definitely be investigated by the GMC re at the least patient safety.
There were thousands of complaints to them after his bombshells at his questioning

Oh really? I hadn't heard about that, very interesting.

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 12:29

GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 12:00

@prh47bridge - same. I've lost it in the mist of confusion but do you remember JR pointedly saying to a witness re NhsFifes policy "with no thought to Dr Uptons feelings"?
The comment was aimed at Fife & not Sandie, games afoot I thought - setting the scene for Upton to bring a claim against Fife.

Can't say I remember that specific comment but there has been so much. I'm not sure Upton has any valid claims against Fife. That won't necessarily stop him trying, of course.

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:34

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 12:29

Can't say I remember that specific comment but there has been so much. I'm not sure Upton has any valid claims against Fife. That won't necessarily stop him trying, of course.

If they both lose, could he bring a case against Fife saying he took the guidance they gave him and therefore the losses he incurred and his unlawful use of the CR is Fife's fault?

As he's also a respondent, could he be made to pay SP damages personally if she wins?

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 12:34

I can't see what grounds he has for a claim against Fife. They didn't tell him he had to use the female changing room, that was his choice. They treated him with extreme care and consideration throughout and believed every word he said.

SadTimesInFife · 30/07/2025 12:35

Dancingsquirrels · 30/07/2025 10:24

If BBC make a drama out of this, I wonder about Nicola Walker as Sandie Peggie?

Perfect! She could take down Upton with a glance

SerafinasGoose · 30/07/2025 12:36

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:12

We need to look with painful honesty at why Reform are so popular right now. It's easy (and lazy, and self serving) just to think "because loads of people are just thick racists unlike wonderful, progressive, liberal me". It might be true. I'm pretty sure, though, that it has at least something to do with some views, such as "men can't be women and sometimes that matters", being loudly and performatively dismissed as far right (not even centre right!) and fascist and all that. Keep doing that and people are going to wonder what's so wrong about being far right. I struggle to see the difference anyway when the left smothers dissent, gaslights people over reality and enforces Newspeak and penalties for thoughtcrime.

The left has no small degree of culpability. This result is sadly inevitable when the politics of individualism reach their nth degree and the interests of the collective are constantly sacrificed on the altar of me, me, me.

What I understand by the left/right distinction is dead in the water. Traditionally it was a question of economics: these days, vote Labour or vote Tory, you get the same thing. The rest of it seems to cluster around ideology and what's politically expedient at any one moment - which changes with the prevailing wind. Cf. Islamophobia in the wake of 9/11 - the more extremist factions hooking themselves onto Islam being positioned firmly on the right. What a difference 20 years makes. Now anti-semitism is once again an accepted form of racism - having been shunted to the right which is fair game for anything as far as the purity-spirallers are concerned. Islam has moved back to 'the left', and Palestine now looks like replacing TRA, now it's running out of traction, for the new cause celebre for what's now calling itself leftist.

It scares me shitless that the rhetoric I'm hearing today so closely resembles that of the 1930s - especially as I'm now seeing the kind of means by which this sort of thinking takes hold. I've been musing of late whether this landscape has totally changed beyond all recognition or whether I'm falling prey - however loudly I've always protested to the contrary - of that old cliche of becoming more right wing as you get older. I genuinely don't believe - or perhaps don't want to - that the latter is the case.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 12:39

Thingybob · 30/07/2025 11:56

But it wasn't 'discovered', sneaky Lin took screenshots to show the board.

Who would expect that to happen if they were in a private group with just close friends. These were friends that worked together, that you had confided in, they had celebrated your 50th birthday with you and had holidayed with you numerous times.

I agree, I doubt she’s popular with that group now she’s dragged all of them into it (including herself and her patient data breach), having their private messages shared, whatever they think of SP.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 12:41

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 12:34

I can't see what grounds he has for a claim against Fife. They didn't tell him he had to use the female changing room, that was his choice. They treated him with extreme care and consideration throughout and believed every word he said.

I think they might go to town on him for the potential evidence falsifying after he made their IT expert look like an unprofessional idiot.

flopsyuk · 30/07/2025 12:42

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 12:34

If they both lose, could he bring a case against Fife saying he took the guidance they gave him and therefore the losses he incurred and his unlawful use of the CR is Fife's fault?

As he's also a respondent, could he be made to pay SP damages personally if she wins?

He also said he used the women's changing room at a previous job

SadTimesInFife · 30/07/2025 12:45

SirChenjins · 30/07/2025 12:14

DU is a man who openly admitted that he would tell patients he was a woman and would only stop treating them if they actually told him to stop. He also used a female changing room and stripped to his pants and a bra (ffs) even though he knew it upset some women using it and that he had mo legal right to do so. He also refused to leave the cr and give a woman the dignity and privacy she told him she needed.

I think 'weirdo' is actually very restrained. If a condition of my NHS contract (according to my managers and in breach of the law) was that I had to change my clothes in his presence my description of him to my friends would be less polite.

Edited

DU has brought the medical profession into disrepute in a number of ways. If he has deliberately misrepresented facts then that is surely gross misconduct for which he should lose his licence. (Police officers lose their jobs for gross misconduct in public office, so why should another public servant- a doctor- be treated any differently?)

BezMills · 30/07/2025 12:45

Another2Cats · 30/07/2025 10:12

"When I was a child in a northern town in the 70s...but one beginning with W which we thankfully don't seem to hear any more."

Yes, the W word is one that I don't think I've heard for a very long time indeed.

I remember when I was 14 (and going through my punk phase) and a group from Belfast called Stiff Little Fingers released their first album "Inflammable Material".

One of the tracks on the album, "White Noise", goes through three verses, describing different racist stereotypes with the third being the Irish.

However, they stopped playing it live as they'd assumed that since they could see the irony in the song and that it was calling out how bad these stereotypes were, it turned out that not everybody who listened to it could. Not even when they got to the Irish racist stereotypes where they described themselves as "Green W**s"

But, yes, that is a word I haven't heard in a very long time indeed (except on a 45 year old record)

I was on a bus in Sydney a good few years ago. This was a bus full of financial workers from a Big Finance Company. I asked one of the guys near me where was the best stop for where I lived. He says to me 'Poms get off at Paramatta' (notorious rough far-western suburb). I said 'I'm not a pom, I'm Scottish' - to which he replied 'Porridge Wogs get off at Paramatta too'.

As a Scot living in England I get a lot of pish poor pub bants (often including really bad attempt at a Scottish accent) which I generally laugh off. That Aussie burn on the bus was actually class to be honest, I've never been insulted like that before nor after. I could only laugh.

Deadcog · 30/07/2025 12:48

Porridge W- get off at Paramatta too

You really found that funny?

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