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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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30
borntobequiet · 30/07/2025 09:38

RoyalCorgi · 30/07/2025 08:57

Have you got a link? I read some of it on Twitter yesterday but now can't remember which account it was on. I was really shocked that someone would stand up in court and give evidence against a long-term friend and colleague. Really horrible. Sandie must have thought all this time that Lindsay (Lindsey?) was someone she got on with, and now it turns out that Lindsay didn't like her at all.

https://archive.ph/lAwUg

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:39

Not sure, I think I saw it on here.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:40

Personal villification based on one's political or voting patterns is very extreme these days; especially if you veer away from cherished and protected 'progressive' dogmas. I can well imagine a climate in which anyone who openly states that they might vote anything other than SNP or Labour might be deemed a bigot - especially if they have voiced some liking towards Trump's ( or Reform type) campaign issues. The public sector is pretty much captured by left wing progressivism, and to stand out from that is to make yourself a target.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:43

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:18

Agree with all of this.

And in addition, Fife have put themselves in a position where it's going to be difficult for them to investigate and potentially discipline Sandie for racism. I'm not saying they won't attempt it, although maybe not, but their actions have made it so much more of a delicate, controversial, resource intensive minefield now. And they may not be able to do it for ages, meaning more time Sandie is going to be employed by them and costing money.

And if they go for Sandie, then they'd have to investigate a multitude of other staff, I'm sure......and that might even include some doctors who openly wear Palestinian badges and/or flag colours and display hostility towards Jewish patients.

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 09:45

ickky · 30/07/2025 09:34

I missed that bit. So did a NHSF witness doctor more evidence?

Not doctored as such. She produced a screenshot of Sandie's WhatsApp post sharing the jokes. NC then produced further pages showing where LN had responded with a laughing emoji.

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 09:45

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:47

I've posted elsewhere on the racist jokes mosques element, other than to add that I hope Sandie isn't "struck off" for her comments.

I would hope that she is expected to access some remedial training and reflection, assuming that is she hasn't mistreated patients or staff.

Wasn’t that mosque comment allegedly said by someone else? SP herself said that it was someone else who made the mosque reference, and the building/planning timelines didn’t seem to fit at that SP meal either. The two witnesses yesterday were not very credible. One (to me) was trying to cloud her assertions by carrying on as if she was away with the fairies. ‘Awful things were most definitely said, but I didn’t hear them myself, someone (I don’t know who) told me later’. ‘Don’t know who said it.’ ‘I was shocked, but can’t remember the words I was shocked about.’ (All paraphrased). The other witness had been laughing along with the racist jokes, but now (to me) was all faux righteousness ‘oh gosh, I was completely laughing about something else’. She was then exposed to be focussed on a mission to try to denigrate and destroy SP. So sanctimonious, yet was all sad face emoji when alluding to her journey of having gay sons when saying she hoped they didn’t start doing drag (or dress in women’s clothes) now. No bother breaking confidentiality of a patient though. And I think MForan alluded to there being something else damaging to her character or credibility in the pages they placed as evidence which NC didn’t read out aloud.

We can only speculate now, but DU may have been very lucky that the contents of his phone weren’t explored. Also, the emails from the other staff which may have been made ‘disappear’. Goodness, the IT forensic witness thought DU even tried to doctor what very little evidence he provided.

We say from the NHSF ‘statement’ how they tried to carry out a sly defamation on NC and Sex Matters in a middle of a tribunal in which they were the respondents. Had to withdraw it sharpish as they found out it was a different ball game than their alleged trampling over the women in their employee. You can see they operate in what appears to me to be a dirty manner. They were only too happy to throw any crap at anyone they could. To me, both witness for R yesterday looked like idiot, but very willing patsies. One being somewhat more nasty and vindictive than the other. She was so enamoured with the mirage of herself as she performed righteousness, she hadn’t reckoned on anyone investigating her own character, motives, or actions in this matter.

We say the speck in SP’s eye. Yet, even on these very threads, we had someone give witness to how she was profession and caring (and without racism) in her job in real life. Maybe it was not just a plank in NHSF’s eye, but an institutional which is an overgrown forest full of people/management who were rotten to the core. All the while so sanctimonious, don’t you know.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:46

I know of a senior staff nurse who used to make very disparaging comments about patients who were admitted to Intensive care during covid...about how obese most of them were. Doctors and nurses are just human beings with their own prejudices and likes and dislikes. What makes you a professional is to put those aside in order to permit you to carry out your role or function properly.

Pleasantsort · 30/07/2025 09:48

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 08:43

The P one is definitely used as a slur in my experience. Not so much the C one which is a bit disrespectful but not hostile. Again, in my experience.

I think most people now know the P one is unacceptable- not so much in the past but definitely now.

It's interesting how terms and their acceptability change, though. As someone pointed out earlier, "coloured" was once regarded as a politer word than "black". Few people use it now - maybe some older people who haven't caught up.

I'm from a white, working class Scottish family . The P and C word has certainly been known to be racist since about the late 80's /90s and the older members of my family know that these words are not acceptable. I'm older than Sandie and some of the witnesses and know that these words are awful and a slur. Doesn't take away from the main premise of the tribunal though - women's right to single sex spaces.

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:49

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:43

And if they go for Sandie, then they'd have to investigate a multitude of other staff, I'm sure......and that might even include some doctors who openly wear Palestinian badges and/or flag colours and display hostility towards Jewish patients.

Is that a reference to anyone specific at Fife? I agree if so. The clear rise in anti Semitism frightens me, even as a non-Jew myself.

And I think at bare minimum, they're going to have to look at LN and perhaps the other nurses in that group chat. AFAIK they're all experienced nurses who didn't have any issues working there before now, so I imagine Fife would've preferred not to have found out about any of this.

MoltenLasagne · 30/07/2025 09:52

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 09:28

Interesting that his union were willing to support him in those circumstances (racially abusing someone) but RCN refused to support Sandie for evidently far more heinous GC views.

Yes, I was particularly appalled by that. He was the only white staff member in that office and I think possibly he told the union that it was a case of reverse racism. He was exceedingly racist though in a way which I have only experienced with other white South Africans (as in he genuinely believe non-white people were inferior) so how he managed to convince the union to go along with it is beyond me.

This was 15 years ago now though so I imagine the landscape has changed somewhat. I still believe he had the right to challenge that due process was followed.

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 09:53

@Cailleach1 Check out the tribunal tweets yesterday, Sandie didn't deny she personally had said she wanted to post bacon though a new mosque, rather she said she didn't recall.

You really don't know if she was free from any racism in real life, any sort of discrimination and racist attitude is against the NMC Code of Conduct.

Firealarms · 30/07/2025 09:56

Harassedevictee · 30/07/2025 09:11

If I put my HR hat on you are correct but there are more issues:

  • GDPR breach - all 7 on the benidorm chat should have reported. This is serious for them all and potentially gross misconduct.
  • racist meme’s and other unsavoury comments - the full 2600 pages potentially could see all 7 on the Benidorm chat reported to NMC.
  • DrU’s admission he would see a patient who requested a female doctor should be referred to the GMC. This level of arrogance or delusion means he is a safeguarding risk. This has shaken my faith in the NHS more than SPs views.
  • DrUs false allegations about professional misconduct. Again referral to GMC on fitness to practice grounds.. If he would do this to a colleague what would he do to a patient?
  • DrUs delusion they are a biological woman. Again referral to GMC on fitness to practice grounds. All the other TWAW medical professional witnesses very reluctantly agreed DrU is a man. A bare minimum.
  • KS, ED, MC and others working together to undermine a fair investigation. Referral to GMC. Again if they can do this to a longstanding colleague what would they do if one made a clinical mistake and a patient made a complaint. Disappearing notes? Embellishing DATIX? Colluding to get their story straight? Again undermining public confidence.
  • NHSF unlawful policy about SSS. As KnottyAuty’s audit has shown the whole NHS is potentially guilty of sex discrimination as well as race and religious discrimination for not providing female only wards, changing rooms, toilets and care. This is huge in terms of public confidence.
  • NHSF not following its own suspension and investigation policies. Plus clearly not drilling down to get all the evidence. Again huge in terms of public confidence.
  • NHSF culture is toxic as clearly no one wanted to go against its TWAW policies and culture of fear. Again impacting public confidence. This laid bare the institutional failure to accept criticism or mistakes. It is a known issue yet this ET showed the whistleblowing and speak up schemes have not worked.
SP is flawed, like all of us, but my god her courage in revealing the truth warts and all about herself, NHSF and many of her colleagues is to be applauded.

I don’t know enough about the process. How does the GMC/NMC get involved in these matters? Who makes the initial report, can anyone do that? I don’t deny that these questions should be formally addressed, but I can’t imagine NHS Fife would report DU or KS etc to GMC given the bias you mention. Therefore does SP do it? Do her solicitors?

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:56

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:49

Is that a reference to anyone specific at Fife? I agree if so. The clear rise in anti Semitism frightens me, even as a non-Jew myself.

And I think at bare minimum, they're going to have to look at LN and perhaps the other nurses in that group chat. AFAIK they're all experienced nurses who didn't have any issues working there before now, so I imagine Fife would've preferred not to have found out about any of this.

I don't know about doctors at Fife, but this has been found in numerous other hospitals.

My main point being that racism and prejudice can take many forms and if you are going to discipline one staff member for private jokes and use of certain words considered offensive, then you are going to have to be consistent with how you apply disciplinary procedures to all staff members. There can be no sacred castes or sacred types of prejudice.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:59

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 09:53

@Cailleach1 Check out the tribunal tweets yesterday, Sandie didn't deny she personally had said she wanted to post bacon though a new mosque, rather she said she didn't recall.

You really don't know if she was free from any racism in real life, any sort of discrimination and racist attitude is against the NMC Code of Conduct.

A lot of staff are going to fall foul of that. You can't apply it inconsistently for one member of staff and not for others. Especially when it involves accusations based on jokes and things said when out of working hours.

GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 10:02

@anyolddinosaur this is a screenshot from twitter. Ive done a bit of gardening.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48
RhymesWithOrange · 30/07/2025 10:02

Excellent post @Harassedevictee.

GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 10:03

@anyolddinosaur screenshot under review. Hopefully it will show up. If not DM me!

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 10:04

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:34

I'd almost forgotten about her, after the ensuing events!

Bumba is an interesting case because she's the only one where you wonder how she was ever appointed in the first place. The behaviour of a lot of the clinical staff has been appalling, but it's clear why people who hold current, valid registration as doctors and nurses would be offered jobs in those roles. The problems with Searle, Nicol etc came after. Can't blame whoever initially chose to employ them, they met the required criteria as far as we know.

Whereas with Bumba, it genuinely throws up questions about whether the recruitment team were doing their jobs properly at that stage.

I think they were. She was not hired to keep the company legally compliant and a safe place for all with protected characteristics kept protected. That's HR's job, so whatever she was intended to do was outside HR's remit.

She was DEI, and all the evidence suggests that the purpose of that department anywhere is to make performative noise about how progressive and inclusive and wonderful the place is while shutting up anyone who spots what's actually going on. Pronouns in the bio is not a neutral statement or even an attempt to normalise pronoun statements to help trans people come out. It's a clear stance in the TRA v women's rights issue, and it's become clear over time which side DEI is supposed to take. In that sense, she was well appointed and did exactly what she was hired to do, up to and including claiming not to know if she's a woman but being sure that Upton is. That's why, as ridiculous as she and her job are, it would be very unfair if Fife were to claim it was a sane and sensible place before she came along and created the insanity. She's a symptom of the systemic rot, not the cause.

EmeraldRoulette · 30/07/2025 10:04

Wasitabadger · 30/07/2025 09:33

@EmeraldRoulette you are right it should never have been brought into evidence.

I was commenting on it as the fact is it was brought into evidence rightly or wrongly.

These conversations do happen in everyday life in a casual manner. More so on annoymous forums. It is easy to hide behind a keyboard and make snap judgments.

Not sure if that's directed at me about "snap judgements"

I know it's impossible to know who you're talking to online

So you may not believe me

But I am a woman of colour, I am over a certain age so the name calling is familiar - and it's been genuinely eye-opening to me to see how many people say that it's part of their normal conversation in life. In 2025.

I can't think that anyone would be making it up to say that they use these terms in everyday life.

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 10:05

Thank you @Harassedevictee for your really informative post. What is your HR view on the email KS sent to 20 or so colleagues? Would this be classed as sharing sensitive employee information causing a GDPR breach or would it be classed as passing i formation on a need to know basis?

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48
RhymesWithOrange · 30/07/2025 10:06

I think both Upton and Sandie could go back to work for the NHS. Whether Sandie would want to, I don't know. But even with the huge amounts of coverage this case has had, the vast majority of the public are unaware or uninterested.

StellaAndCrow · 30/07/2025 10:07

I have a question.
I've had to work (how rude!) so haven't been able to follow as closely as I'd like.

Did LN (Lyndsey) have to disclose/give evidence about the WhatsApp messages. Was she the one that disclosed them, or were they requested by the judge (and how did the judge know about them).

I'm guessing I'm wondering about the influence of the people involved, and how keen they were to find and report evidence against SP.

Thank you, as always.

StellaAndCrow · 30/07/2025 10:08

RhymesWithOrange · 30/07/2025 10:06

I think both Upton and Sandie could go back to work for the NHS. Whether Sandie would want to, I don't know. But even with the huge amounts of coverage this case has had, the vast majority of the public are unaware or uninterested.

Yes, most of my nursing colleagues and acquaintances seem to be unaware of the case.

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 10:08

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 09:53

@Cailleach1 Check out the tribunal tweets yesterday, Sandie didn't deny she personally had said she wanted to post bacon though a new mosque, rather she said she didn't recall.

You really don't know if she was free from any racism in real life, any sort of discrimination and racist attitude is against the NMC Code of Conduct.

I’ll look back. I think she said that it wasn’t her. it was a paramedic from further back, and that meal she was talking about the female changing room.

Yes, I said we saw the speck in SP’s eye. Also someone on this thread said she couldn’t have been more professional and caring when dealing with her Asian father.

About the discrimination not being allowed by the NMC. Women are being discriminated against left right and centre, when being given supposedly female only rooms in which to change. Rooms where men are being given access, with the unsuspecting and unconsenting women exposed to potential sex offending such peeping and flashing. It is just so sleazy and creepy how this is being present as the rights of those men. It seems so many regulatory bodies, and unions are pushing for discrimination and colluding in potential sex offending against women.

Have the NMC come out and said this was an abuse of women’s rights? Otherwise… .

UpDo · 30/07/2025 10:08

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 09:59

A lot of staff are going to fall foul of that. You can't apply it inconsistently for one member of staff and not for others. Especially when it involves accusations based on jokes and things said when out of working hours.

I suppose the point is that the NHS and NMC won't usually know. There must be a great many conversations where a nurse has said or communicated something that breaches the NMC code of conduct, but that never come to light.

That said, I'm not sure the mosque allegations are going to be particularly significant. There's only one witness, not particularly reliable, who claims to have heard it. And as a pp pointed out, the timelines may not match. It would make much more sense for anyone wanting to take action to focus on the messages.

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