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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

OP posts:
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30
flopsyuk · 30/07/2025 10:11

UpDo · 30/07/2025 09:34

I'd almost forgotten about her, after the ensuing events!

Bumba is an interesting case because she's the only one where you wonder how she was ever appointed in the first place. The behaviour of a lot of the clinical staff has been appalling, but it's clear why people who hold current, valid registration as doctors and nurses would be offered jobs in those roles. The problems with Searle, Nicol etc came after. Can't blame whoever initially chose to employ them, they met the required criteria as far as we know.

Whereas with Bumba, it genuinely throws up questions about whether the recruitment team were doing their jobs properly at that stage.

I am guessing that Bumba didn't consult HR about Upton using the changing room or look at their own policies?

It's been well quoted that NHS Fife didn't have a specific Trans policy but they did have others which mentioned sex and gender reassignment.

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/policies-and-procedures/hr-policies-and-procedures/hr-policies/equality-diversity-human-rights-policy/

If HR had been involved and someone looked at their policies they would have seen

'Foster good relationships between people who share a protected characteristic and those who do not'

Bumba seems to have ignored their own HR document which states that sex is a protected characteristic.

There is nothing in their own document I can see that entitles any manager to place the interests of any one group over another's human rights.

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 10:11

StellaAndCrow · 30/07/2025 10:07

I have a question.
I've had to work (how rude!) so haven't been able to follow as closely as I'd like.

Did LN (Lyndsey) have to disclose/give evidence about the WhatsApp messages. Was she the one that disclosed them, or were they requested by the judge (and how did the judge know about them).

I'm guessing I'm wondering about the influence of the people involved, and how keen they were to find and report evidence against SP.

Thank you, as always.

Lindsey took it upon herself to report the WhatsApp chat to her Employers. She was selective though in the pages she disclosed. The Fife barrister only submitted those selected pages and it was NC who submitted the 2000 plus remaining messages which showed the patient data breach etc.

Another2Cats · 30/07/2025 10:12

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 08:58

When I was a child in a northern town in the 70s there were a lot of racist attitudes specifically towards black people (there were a lot fewer Asian people then than there are now) - lots of National Front graffiti, not so much the N word but one beginning with W which we thankfully don't seem to hear any more. I remember seeing that from an early age.

"When I was a child in a northern town in the 70s...but one beginning with W which we thankfully don't seem to hear any more."

Yes, the W word is one that I don't think I've heard for a very long time indeed.

I remember when I was 14 (and going through my punk phase) and a group from Belfast called Stiff Little Fingers released their first album "Inflammable Material".

One of the tracks on the album, "White Noise", goes through three verses, describing different racist stereotypes with the third being the Irish.

However, they stopped playing it live as they'd assumed that since they could see the irony in the song and that it was calling out how bad these stereotypes were, it turned out that not everybody who listened to it could. Not even when they got to the Irish racist stereotypes where they described themselves as "Green W**s"

But, yes, that is a word I haven't heard in a very long time indeed (except on a 45 year old record)

Harassedevictee · 30/07/2025 10:13

Firealarms · 30/07/2025 09:56

I don’t know enough about the process. How does the GMC/NMC get involved in these matters? Who makes the initial report, can anyone do that? I don’t deny that these questions should be formally addressed, but I can’t imagine NHS Fife would report DU or KS etc to GMC given the bias you mention. Therefore does SP do it? Do her solicitors?

Edited

I believe anyone can complain. A number have complained about DrU but I understand the GMC are not investigating until we get the ET judgement.

GDPR - NHSF should report to ICO.

I think members of the public will complain to NMC & GMC but I am not convinced NHSF will report anyone. If they do it’s likely to be the nurses not the Drs.

Part of the issue for NHSF is staffing, can the afford the impact during investigations and potentially dismissals. Partly how far did NHSF help their staff to expose themselves. There is a duty of care that may have been breached.

Realistically LN may end up being a sacrificial lamb. DrU may take a break from work for his health and then may return as Dr Theodore Upton. SP is probably not going to be able to return to work at NHSF.

StellaAndCrow · 30/07/2025 10:13

RoyalCorgi · 30/07/2025 09:27

Thanks, Updo. LN doesn't come out well, does she?

Also interesting that in passing she mentions that hardly any doctors use the particular changing room that Upton was using. I can't imagine why Upton was so keen to use it.

In with the girlies, innit!

Where they share tips on lipstick and bras. During their busy A+E shifts.

prh47bridge · 30/07/2025 10:13

My thoughts this morning...

There was supposed to be another witness from the Benidorm chat group to support SP. That witness did not appear. I'm not surprised she backed out given the way LN was exposed. It is not guaranteed, but it seems likely that the private case management discussion was about this witness. Options that may have been considered include:

  • using a witness summons to force her attendance
  • getting a witness statement to add to the bundle - this would get her evidence in and would carry some weight, but less than if she had been cross examined
  • taking her evidence in private

If NC simply decided not to call her, I don't see that there would have been any need for a case management discussion about her. Of course, the case management discussion could have been about something else.

The evidence from Emma Moore was hearsay and weak. However, if it is true that Fife took it on themselves to vet mail addressed to SP, that is a big problem. I don't know if any attempt will be made to get a response from Fife regarding this. If it is not true, I would expect JR to deny it in her submissions. If she does not do so, it does not guarantee that the allegation is true, but it certainly suggests that it might be.

Re SP and the NMC, I am not an expert in the NMC so I would give way to anyone who is. A review of a few cases suggests that the NMC would view a single incident of racist jokes being shared with colleagues in a private chat group, none of whom appear to have taken offence at the time and where this is the only instance in 7 years of chat, as less serious than racially abusing colleagues or patients. The latter would definitely lead to SP being struck off. This should, I think, lead to a lesser sanction such as a caution or temporary suspension should the NMC decide that a penalty is required. If the NMC is captured, it is possible that SP's GC views would lead to them wanting to impose a higher penalty, but I would hope that they would be deterred from doing anything out of line with previous decisions by the knowledge that SP has a backer with deep pockets.

Re LN and the NMC, sharing confidential patient details on a private chat group is clearly unacceptable. However, this is not as serious as sharing them with other patients or on a public forum. If the NMC get involved, this may be sufficient mitigation to lead to a lesser sanction than being struck off. However, I suspect that she will find that many of her colleagues now want to keep their distance from her. She has demonstrated how spiteful she can be and that she cannot be trusted.

Returning to the tribunal, all that is left now is submissions, both verbal and written, then we wait for the tribunal's decision. I am confident that the tribunal will decide that Fife broke the law by allowing Upton to use the female changing room. Whilst I can see that JR has an argument that this is not what the SC decision means, I would be very surprised if the tribunal accepts that argument. I cannot be certain, but I don't think JR has enough evidence to convince the panel that SP was not suffering from menstrual flooding but deliberately went into the changing room to provoke a confrontation with Upton. Once the incident had happened, it is clear that Fife completely failed to follow any appropriate process, rushing to condemn SP and support Upton without even bothering to find out what SP had to say. I therefore think she will win and get significant compensation. If the panel concludes that Fife's scorched earth approach means SP cannot continue to work there, that should significantly increase the compensation awarded.

I am sure there will be an appeal if SP loses. Whether Fife will appeal if SP wins is less certain. However, if Fife lose I suspect that all those members of staff who rushed to support Upton will convince themselves that they were right and the tribunal was wrong.

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 10:17

To be fair to Lindsay (I'm not her, honest) she said in her evidence that her laugh reaction was not to the jokes but to Sandie saying something like "Does that make me a racist?" after the jokes - the laugh was because it was obvious Sandie was being racist. Don't know if this is actually what happened but that's what she said.

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 30/07/2025 10:18

The HR Director seems to have stayed hidden in all of this process and appears he’s managed to sidestep - like most of the Fife Board - the scrutiny saved for some lower graded employees. He’s going to be very busy going forward as clearly his organisation is going to go through any number of disciplinary and regulatory processes as a consequence of this whole Tribunal process…….and not before time really given what we’ve all been party to.

anyolddinosaur · 30/07/2025 10:18

@BeLemonNow We know that Sandie has not had complaints about racism in 30 years of service and have had one person show up here to say her family got excellent compassionate care when her father was dying.

I try not to see black humour, I dont generally find it funny. Stay off x, reddit, similar cess pits. People dont send me such stuff and Facebook wouldnt show me it because if they've ever shown me such stuff I'll have blocked it. But I assess people by actions and not words. Too many people will spout the right words but never actually do anything constructive. Someone said it better up thread and I was going to copy it but lost it copying the stages toxic health authorities should go through. Whatever Sandie said privately to friends she seems to have treated patients professionally. I would not trust Upton or the medics who supported him to do so.

If Sandie had not brought this case Fife would not have any proof of racist comment and would not have been able to sack her. They possibly could do so now but after the faking of evidence and collusion that has gone on so far they'd need to be extremely careful over doing so. If this case goes to appeal I dont know if a constructive dismissal can be added at that stage.

We know that TRAs will share all sorts of threats against women. Tribunals seem to have quite wide ranging powers and I still dont know why this one thought it couldnt order examination of DUs phone when it's obviously highly relevant to this case. If they dont have such powers they need to be given them.

Fife needs to drop it's emphasis on trans and start focusing on doing it's job. Part of that needs to be addressing racist behaviour, if there is any. Both patients and staff need to be aware that if they have concerns they can raise them and have their concerns treated fairly. They can start by educating all their staff about the need for due process for anyone, whether you like them or not. In fact if you are aware of bias rather than thinking "I'm on the right side of history" you need to be I need to take extra care to overcome my bias.

WeaselCheeks · 30/07/2025 10:19

I've said before, I'm pretty sure that if I met Sandie Peggie, I wouldn't get on, ever since it came out that she was a Trump supporter, and was married to an open racist.

But that doesn't matter in this court case. What matters is determining whether she a) conducted herself in a professional manner at work, and b) whether she was reasonable in not wanting to share a changing room with a colleague.

In terms of a), there's been no patient complaints about her, as far as I'm aware, and she's been cleared of misconduct - it looks like those complaints by Upton were porky pies. In terms of b), the recent Supreme Court ruling seems to be firmly in her favour - not to mention, common sense. Of course most women would be uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a male colleague, regardless of how that colleague dressed or identified.

The alleged text messages/bacon to the mosque comments are absolutely despicable, but don't have any bearing on the case. To be honest, I think they would be worthy of disciplinary action/dismissal if proven to be true (just as police officers have been dismissed for similar group chats) - but they need to be raised as their own thing, with all involved investigated, and the messages confirmed to be as described.

As it stands currently, it seems a bit dodgy that they're being raised now in regards to an unrelated case, and there's already been accusations against SP that have been subsequently proven to be false.

UpDo · 30/07/2025 10:20

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 10:04

I think they were. She was not hired to keep the company legally compliant and a safe place for all with protected characteristics kept protected. That's HR's job, so whatever she was intended to do was outside HR's remit.

She was DEI, and all the evidence suggests that the purpose of that department anywhere is to make performative noise about how progressive and inclusive and wonderful the place is while shutting up anyone who spots what's actually going on. Pronouns in the bio is not a neutral statement or even an attempt to normalise pronoun statements to help trans people come out. It's a clear stance in the TRA v women's rights issue, and it's become clear over time which side DEI is supposed to take. In that sense, she was well appointed and did exactly what she was hired to do, up to and including claiming not to know if she's a woman but being sure that Upton is. That's why, as ridiculous as she and her job are, it would be very unfair if Fife were to claim it was a sane and sensible place before she came along and created the insanity. She's a symptom of the systemic rot, not the cause.

My point is about recruitment, the initial stage. The job ad is here.

https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/1945024536824467961

IB took her Linkedin down, for which I don't remotely blame her, but there are various screenshots floating about if you have a look on social media. Nothing in her work or academic experience would've qualified her as a 'subject matter expert' on the various pieces of legislation. Nowhere close.

That said, I fully agree with your last few sentences. IB did perform the job Fife wanted her to do, it's just that wasn't the one they claimed to be recruiting for. In the very unlikely event that she'd actually brought up workplace toilet regulations, Forstater and WORIADS or anything of that nature, I see no evidence that she'd have been listened to.

I also think that, for all IB made a fool of herself in some of her evidence, if she were trying to make sure she wasn't scapegoated then she succeeded. There was a lot of talk of that possibility, and I'd be amazed if the thought hadn't occurred to her.

https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/1945024536824467961

KeepTalkingBeth · 30/07/2025 10:21

GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 09:23

@Harassedevictee great informative post from a HR bod - thank you.

Wowzer - its looking like everyone could end up in some kind of process. Surely NhsFife must be placed in special measures if this were to happen? Who could trust the current board to act fairly to anyone (based on what we've seen/heard)?

I agree @GirlsInGreen

As disappointed as I am in the racist jokes shared by Sandie, I have been in this world long enough to know that racism is widespread. The NMC can deal with those messages, that were shared in a private group out of work hours. SP can deal with the consequences and to be fair to her she went back on the stand to face questioning.

My takeaway from the case is not that. It's how crooked NHSF are:

heathcare professionals lying under oath (I dont know my sex, I'd have to look at my birth certificate, from Dr Searle)

admitting to violating consent (I'm a woman so I'd treat female patients who asked for a female member of staff, paraphrasing Dr Upton)

Embellishing of a datix report

Colluding with other witnesses

falsifying evidence for the tribunal

Withholding of evidence until the bitter end and beyond

Truly disgraceful for a public-funded body and staff bound by strict professional standards.

After witnessing such hard-faced dishonesty, in a court of law in all places, I don't think I can trust healthcare professionals again

Dancingsquirrels · 30/07/2025 10:24

If BBC make a drama out of this, I wonder about Nicola Walker as Sandie Peggie?

anyolddinosaur · 30/07/2025 10:26

@GirlsInGreen That's Faye, whose case is often mentioned on here. Is she Muslim, dont think she's said that? Regardless I've also gardened for that case and encouraged her to seek support from JR's fund.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 10:27

UpDo · 30/07/2025 10:08

I suppose the point is that the NHS and NMC won't usually know. There must be a great many conversations where a nurse has said or communicated something that breaches the NMC code of conduct, but that never come to light.

That said, I'm not sure the mosque allegations are going to be particularly significant. There's only one witness, not particularly reliable, who claims to have heard it. And as a pp pointed out, the timelines may not match. It would make much more sense for anyone wanting to take action to focus on the messages.

I cannot see that travelling any further. The hospital have already cleared her of their own misconduct charges.

borntobequiet · 30/07/2025 10:29

Dancingsquirrels · 30/07/2025 10:24

If BBC make a drama out of this, I wonder about Nicola Walker as Sandie Peggie?

The BBC never will, I’ll stake my next batch of scones on it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2025 10:29

Lins77 · 30/07/2025 10:17

To be fair to Lindsay (I'm not her, honest) she said in her evidence that her laugh reaction was not to the jokes but to Sandie saying something like "Does that make me a racist?" after the jokes - the laugh was because it was obvious Sandie was being racist. Don't know if this is actually what happened but that's what she said.

Who knows what anyone really meant, or the tone used, when referring to on on-line messaging or hearsay

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 10:33

@anyolddinosaur this she hasn't had any complaints in 30 years and using one positive story is extremely naive.

First it's clear NHS Fife don't give a rats arse about racism and if they overhear disgusting remarks don't bother reporting or challenging them.

Secondly as for patients, racism isn't all shouting at people aggressively. Someone is dismissive of your concerns at A&E are you going to assume it's because of racism?

Even if you detected racism or a general dehumanising attitude are you going to report it based on that sort of flimsy evidence?

In aggregate, though it this type of racism still affects health outcomes of ethnic minority groups i.e. because concerns are dismissed.

flopsyuk · 30/07/2025 10:34

UpDo · 30/07/2025 10:20

My point is about recruitment, the initial stage. The job ad is here.

https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/1945024536824467961

IB took her Linkedin down, for which I don't remotely blame her, but there are various screenshots floating about if you have a look on social media. Nothing in her work or academic experience would've qualified her as a 'subject matter expert' on the various pieces of legislation. Nowhere close.

That said, I fully agree with your last few sentences. IB did perform the job Fife wanted her to do, it's just that wasn't the one they claimed to be recruiting for. In the very unlikely event that she'd actually brought up workplace toilet regulations, Forstater and WORIADS or anything of that nature, I see no evidence that she'd have been listened to.

I also think that, for all IB made a fool of herself in some of her evidence, if she were trying to make sure she wasn't scapegoated then she succeeded. There was a lot of talk of that possibility, and I'd be amazed if the thought hadn't occurred to her.

NHS Fife may have been using Stonewall for their 'LGBT' training. They may not have a specific Trans Policy written down but if they are using Stonewall for education it would stand to reason that anyone attending the course would assume that whatever they were told was the policy.

Page 14

www.nhsfife.org/about-us/policies-and-procedures/hr-policies-and-procedures/hr-policies/equality-diversity-human-rights-policy/

38 people attended the course in 2020. If they were managers it was an ideal way for Stonewall 'Law' to creep into the culture. Managers may well have gone back to their unit and some of this imposed on the workforce who became too frightened and confused to respond.

The person in charge when this report was written was Helen Buchann, Director of nursing, equality etc.

Was the Stonewall Good Practise course vetted or checked in any way or were they given an opportunity to dictat policy with no scrutiny?

Starsabovemee · 30/07/2025 10:34

The more I think about those messages the sicker I feel. How can anyone defend or try and explain it away? Can you in all good conscience say that you or anyone you know would openly share those kinds of “jokes” in a WhatsApp group and use of the P word and it would not be a big deal? In this day and age?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 30/07/2025 10:36

Firealarms · 30/07/2025 08:09

As her views have never impacted her work I doubt there’s anything they can do.

I disagree - you are missing the context. Firstly, if a patient had concerns about SP - presumably they would complain to another staff member or to the hospital directly. In context, SP’s colleagues do not like her. Even her closest friends at work turned against her. In context, her employer/NHS hospital do not want her to remain working there, there has been a relationship breakdown where they are at an employment tribunal. SP is also suing her union, so they likely won’t help her if new issues arise.

Therefore if a patient raises concerns about SP, they likely would be upheld with no goodwill shown to SP. The patient wouldn’t be told “tough” or “you don’t have the right to choose”. Instead the NHS would be noting down these occurrences to show that SP cannot remain working there and eventually sack her.

SP hasn’t had a single complaint made against her in 30 years, not by patients or colleagues, doesn’t that tell you something?

Her views are abhorrent, that is clear, but thinking we can eradicate everyone from working with the public who has these views is quite frankly ridiculous. My FIL has similar views, he’s a lot older than SP. In his life he’s served his country in the army, he’s been a scout leader, a funeral director and now he’s retired he spends three days a week as a bus escort for a service for people with special needs. Within his local community he’s considered to be a man of compassion and kindness.

People aren’t one dimensional, they are multi faceted, and some people can hold views that we may find abhorrent, but they are able to keep those views to themselves whilst going about their jobs in the community.

It is possible to abhor someone’s views whilst recognising that they are a valuable part of society. I personally don’t want to live in a society where people are judged on their thoughts, that is Orwellian, if their thoughts spill over into actions, then that is another matter entirely.

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 30/07/2025 10:36

GirlsInGreen · 30/07/2025 08:14

@mrshoho am I right in thinking the other colleagues (inc Sandie) who didn't report the patient conf breech are equally liable?

I think they can argue they didn't see it - I miss loads of stuff in a fast moving group chat. I will genuinely ask a question when I see someone f2f and they will say did you not see teh chat yesterday

INeedAPensieve · 30/07/2025 10:39

Gosh ok I've got the gist now, v vindictive of this Lindsay person. Not that I'm saying Sandie sharing something like that is right, it's not, and hopefully she understands why now, but someone who was counted as a friend breaking that trust and to do it so publicly and with the potential to cause untold damage is very spiteful.

anyolddinosaur · 30/07/2025 10:42

@EmeraldRoulette A lot of us have recognised that this sort of language still exists but have also said that there is often no malicious intent or antagonism to others behind it.

Until the rise of Reform I'd have said that while the language is hard to change the prejudice, discrimination and antagonism to others had dropped. Actions matter, words are less significant.

Our major political parties have refused to listen to people's concerns and our immigrant communities have been reluctant to assimilate. There are real differences in culture and we cant sweep them under the carpet and pretend they dont exist. I dont actually know how we can develop a more tolerant society but we dont do it without dialogue, we need you on mumsnet.

Nameychangington · 30/07/2025 10:43

EmeraldRoulette · 30/07/2025 10:04

Not sure if that's directed at me about "snap judgements"

I know it's impossible to know who you're talking to online

So you may not believe me

But I am a woman of colour, I am over a certain age so the name calling is familiar - and it's been genuinely eye-opening to me to see how many people say that it's part of their normal conversation in life. In 2025.

I can't think that anyone would be making it up to say that they use these terms in everyday life.

Have people said it's part of their normal conversation in everyday life in 2025? I don't think I've seen posters saying yes I'd use the words p@ki and ch1nky (I have skimmed a bit though). Posters have said that these terms are still used by people they know in the areas they live in, but I don't think that's the same thing.

I grew up in a very white, undiverse area, when I went to university in the mid 90s a housemate (from a Midlands industrial town) casually mentioned 'going to the p@ki shop'. She said she'd never seen anyone look as shocked as I did. I had literally never heard someone say that word aloud, let alone so casually. I was stunned anyone would say it, but to her it was neutral and unremarkable. I think that's what PP have been saying, that in their towns/families these unacceptable words are, wrongly, seen as neutral descriptors, not racist slurs. I haven't seen PP condoning that but I've seen some trying explain or contextualise it.

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