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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 12:33

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

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Binglebong · 28/07/2025 17:41

Largesso · 28/07/2025 17:32

I respectfully disagree. There has been lots of references to these issues in vague terms and JR has finally been put in a position here she has had to produce the documentation.

Part of NHSF argument is that because SP was known to be an out and out bigot generally this amounts to patient safety concerns. They are arguing that her behaviour towards DU is transphobic and that fits into a broader paradigm of her being racist and homophobic.

They are arguing this for two reasons:

  1. to justify the extended suspension of SP and to find the means to get rid of her so they don’t have to deal with the issue at hand.

  2. to ensure that the TRA lobby stay onside because the Stonewall message is that transphobes are
    also right wing racists and homophobes. Therefore if you can prove one the other must also be true. This is necessary because whilst the word transphobia has lost its sting through misuse racism and homophobia have retained theirs so are being coralled into the general state of accusations to provide sufficient anti (rather than upping the anti) for their actions and Jack of fairness.

This came to a head today because JR has probably been instructed to use evidence that she has previously not included in the bundle because it is a bit dodgy and, I suspect, she didn’t really want to produce wither FW or LN as witnesses if she didn’t have to.

The message trails have only been submitted recently, you can tell by their page numbers, and some only on Friday.

They are pinning their hopes, I think, on the panel being of that view too.

It was important that it came to light. Many of us have been fully cognisant of the fact that SP will have views that don’t align with our own and, in some cases, we might find offensive. But we are also of the opinion that she does not bring those opinions to her work and does not act on them with regard to patients or colleagues.

She made significant effort to treat DU with respect, has worked with him well and describes him as a good doctor. She raised her issue with SSS professionally, sought advice from senior staff and handles the conversation with DU calmly — something he also confirmed in his testimony.

What today’s evidence proves is that the evidence claiming to show she is a racist, a homophobe and, by association, is very slight indeed.

Most of it comes through the Chinese whispers of gossip.

In the private chat group she never called anyone by a racist term directly. Once in a seven year thread she shared horrible jokes that were racist.

There is no evidence that her views has any effect in how she treated patients or staff. There have been no complaints from patients and only one complaint from a trainee nurse that was dismissed and which was really about her being a bit strict, nothing to do with her purported views.

We live in a pluralistic society and the greatest of the values attaches to that is we can live, and love, and be friends with people, who hold very different views to our own. We all, perhaps, have family members we love but whose views we might find offensive but we still love them.

We can, if we choose, engage in respectful debate and we are also allowed to try and change people’s minds about those views.

Unfortunately, the new left has moved away from a pluralistic position into an autocratic one ‘no debate’ which has replaced discourse with slogans and if we don’t ‘all hail’ the slogan we must be punished.

The evidence of today proves something very very important. Whatever SP’s personal views may be she is a great nurse and doesn’t bring them to bear on her patients or colleagues.

I disagree with the views but I wholly respect that she doesn’t bring them to work and doesn’t make any attempt to antagonise others with them. Clearly the chat group was made up of folk who had similar doubts/ questions and willingness to engage in dodgy sharing.

All this needed an airing and NC made a very strong argument.

That's fair and a good reading. Ironically I missed this rely at first because I was replying to someone else with(some!) similar points.

I'm afraid for me some of the mud did stick though. I haven't read the jokes and I was speed reading to catch up so I may have missed something.

Gymnopedie · 28/07/2025 17:42

Part of NHSF argument is that because SP was known to be an out and out bigot generally this amounts to patient safety concerns. They are arguing that her behaviour towards DU is transphobic and that fits into a broader paradigm of her being racist and homophobic.

But we've been told repeatedly that Sandie has a 30 year unblemished record. That clearly says that there have never been any complaints - from patients or other doctors/nurses - about the standard of care she provides.

FeedbackProvider · 28/07/2025 17:43

Anyone have an opinion on whether claimant’s side lost a witness during the course of today? This morning it didn’t sound like the witness with a description of a fearful atmosphere within Fife was a Sex Matters person with hearsay evidence did it?

angelinawasrobbed · 28/07/2025 17:43

Are the jokes available anywhere?

Waitwhat23 · 28/07/2025 17:44

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:31

A bit like Russell brand. But yeah Boyle has a nerve given the shit he used to come out with.

Charlie Brooker (who to be fair could be pretty acidic himself) wrote a column about Frankie Boyle's horrendous pot shots at Katie Prices' son and absolutely went to town on expressing his distaste on such behaviour. I'm sure it was in 'The Hell of it all' but I can't find my copy.

Frankie Boyle's po-faced bullshite is such hypocrisy.

Justabaker · 28/07/2025 17:44

That was quite the roller coaster of a day wasn't it?

I think the most illuminating thing was the J & Wing Women had no questions about any of the witness evidence.

I wanted to explain my personal practice on group chats.

  1. I do not use Facebook Messenger for anything. My extended family has a big Messenger chat for our global sprawl but I am firmly 'read only' in that one.
  2. Whatsapp: Always know the rules of any chat you are in. Who are the admins, disappearing messages, who can 'save messages', etc. Strong recommendation for 7 day disappearing messages, turn off save message feature for all.
  3. Collapse and reform chats from time to time.
  4. The internet never forgets. What does the mug say 'Dance like no one is watching. Write messages like they might be read out in an employment tribunal when you're being questioned by Naomi Cunningham.

We have 7 day disappearing messages on in our family chats.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 17:45

ThatCyanCat · 28/07/2025 17:32

Am I missing something? Is there anything suggesting SP is racist and homophobic that isn't pure hearsay?

She told 4 jokes over a period of 7 years that could be perceived as racist i think thats it everything else is hearsay!

Binglebong · 28/07/2025 17:45

FeedbackProvider · 28/07/2025 17:43

Anyone have an opinion on whether claimant’s side lost a witness during the course of today? This morning it didn’t sound like the witness with a description of a fearful atmosphere within Fife was a Sex Matters person with hearsay evidence did it?

Good point. And if they've seen headline "Evidenvce of SP racism" and they are themselves not white they may be wondering why put themselves out for her?

Totallygripped · 28/07/2025 17:46

WarriorN · 28/07/2025 17:19

even if she’s “not very nice” that isn’t what she was struck off for.

and that matters as any woman could have complained about DU.

being nice is irrelevant surely?

Even the accusation that she’s racist, and this is their proof; - she wasn’t struck off for that.

May be dealt with in posts below which I am trying to keep up with but no one has been struck off. Suspended and then back to work and then exonerated in internal enquiry more accurate (says newbie who stands to be corrected)

Taytoface · 28/07/2025 17:46

I can't see SP being able to go back to work after this. How would a brown patient feel being faced with her? There may not be any evidence of her treating brown patients any differently but I don't think it would be fair to expect patients to accept care of her after those horrendous 'jokes'. I wonder if that is enough to terminate employment? It would be where I work. How many nurses will they lose on the back of that thread?

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 17:46

Arran2024 · 28/07/2025 17:40

People saying that the racism allegations are going to devastate SP's credibility and reputation in the court of public opinion need to remember that many of the headlines, particularly in the BBC coverage, have already painted her as rude, hostile, transphobic, right wing, Trump supporting, rule breaking. For the average reader this is yet another negative attached to her name - but none of it addresses the issue, which is the right to a same sex changing space.

On the one hand, I think it's extremely unfortunate that she has been exposed as having such unpalatable views (along with a goodly portion of her enabler colleagues, it would appear).

This will only feed the TRA narrative that all GC/realists people are inherently bigoted, racist, homophobic, etc, etc. If she wins, it may affect the amount she is awarded, and GC and otherwise sympathetic newspapers, columnists, women's rights organisations and academics probably won't be rushing to throw their weight behind the victory of someone with such problematic views.

On the other hand, I do wonder if a victory for her might galvanise OTHER women (and even men) to take action on the subject on flagrant breaches by their employer of the law around single sex facilities. I could see someone who is currently sitting on the fence thinking, "Well, SHE won and she's a bigot. I don't hold HALF such problematic views and I've certainly never expressed them in a work group chat so imma go for it!"

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 28/07/2025 17:47

ThatCyanCat · 28/07/2025 17:32

Am I missing something? Is there anything suggesting SP is racist and homophobic that isn't pure hearsay?

It appears to all be for the purpose of mudslinging and reducing her poster girl image. Doing a good job of distracting from what they are actually there for. It's the defence job to make the other side look bad but they should have anticipated the blowback. Fife is equally mudsplattered.

ForAllWomen · 28/07/2025 17:47

SionnachRuadh · 28/07/2025 16:20

I did not have the adult baby community on my bingo card.

Has to cross my legs while laughing my head off at this one

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 17:48

cigarsmokingwoman · 28/07/2025 17:34

my mum came up for a cuppa so I missed much of the tribunal and only caught parts. I mention my mum cause during that conversation, she (west of scotland typical working class woman), made jokes about our catholic neighbours being "tms" and getting a "chnky" for dinner and getting milk from the "p*ki shop"

This is actually very normal conversation in most households, maybe not nice, but normal, and my mum likes catholics and has many friends who are catholics (who can say similar things in return), one of my dad's friends is chinese and my parents socialise with them (and this guy also calls his restaurant a ch*nky restaurant) and we are always polite and friendly with the shopkeepers.

joking about something doesn't necessarily mean there's malice in it. What this is again doing is showing classism in the NHS and forgetting things like free speech - you might not like what someone says but they have the right to say it.

Thats what i was trying to say before but you put it a lot better than i did!

Coatsoff42 · 28/07/2025 17:49

Disappointing jokes. A good reason why you don’t bring your authentic self to work, and instead you bring your professional self.

DustyWindowsills · 28/07/2025 17:49

myplace · 28/07/2025 17:30

What an unedifying spectacle. Unpleasant for everyone connected to the hospital whether as staff or patient.

Disclaimer, I haven’t seen the jokes in question. Just read the last few pages of this thread and thought about that group of women sharing that kind of banter, and whether my social media/chat group history is as pure as I’d like to claim.

I can over look an individual sharing a joke which is technically funny but tasteless/inappropriate. As a PP said about a Jimmy Carr joke about domestic violence, sometimes it just works despite the ugliness.

If I scraped the barrel of my conscience, I retold a sexist joke a few years ago, because I was simultaneously shocked and amused by it.

My younger self remembers black jokes about the famine in Ethiopia and the football airline crash. And the space shuttle launch that crashed. A joke about Michael Jackson that was doing the rounds before all the pedophilia stuff.

I’d say they weren’t racist, as the same kind of humour targeted every kind of person.

Now I mix in circles where those kinds of jokes are not shared. I don’t think I’d find them
funny- but can’t be sure because it’s the shock value that tends to make them work.

Without a doubt they are still doing the rounds, so a huge chunk of people still find that kind of humour amusing. I think you can argue they aren’t racist, as the same kind of humour targeted every kind of person. Tasteless, yes. Disturbing, yes.

ETA typo

Edited

This. I live in fear of some of my more well-behaved friends finding out what a sick bastard I am. Luckily (for me) my husband is even worse.

And the space shuttle launch that crashed

Ah yes, the "major malfunction". 🤭

MeinKraft · 28/07/2025 17:49

Arran2024 · 28/07/2025 17:40

People saying that the racism allegations are going to devastate SP's credibility and reputation in the court of public opinion need to remember that many of the headlines, particularly in the BBC coverage, have already painted her as rude, hostile, transphobic, right wing, Trump supporting, rule breaking. For the average reader this is yet another negative attached to her name - but none of it addresses the issue, which is the right to a same sex changing space.

And also that more people than you would think either simply don’t care, or would cheerfully share jokes like that themselves.

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 17:50

Rightsraptor · 28/07/2025 17:36

What's that Andrea Dworkin quote about women's rights being for ALL women, even those you despise?

I quoted it on p5 but I think this thread can stand to have it twice:

“Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don’t like, including all the women you don’t want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don’t want anything to do with any more. It doesn’t matter who the individual women are.” - Andrea Dworkin

WandaSiri · 28/07/2025 17:52

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 17:29

The thing is, at the heart of the case I do believe the NHS had a duty to accommodate both SP and DU. DU initial complaint was in a legal grey area.

Realistically, the NHS should have sought to diffuse tensions and supported both parties and taken a balanced approach etc especially as they had no internal process/legal guidance on this situation - instead they used this as an opportunity to get rid of SP. That’s where they fucked up.

Personally, I hope that any public sector worker who is racist/homophobic gets sacked. But the NHS scored an own goal by using these allegations as a legal defence against SP, whilst never carrying out any investigation into these allegations and allowing her to essentially go unchecked. It’s hard to understand the seriousness of these comments made by SP when the NHS picks and chooses when to be outraged by them.

@Firealarms
The thing is, at the heart of the case I do believe the NHS had a duty to accommodate both SP and DU. DU initial complaint was in a legal grey area.

IANAL, but I can see that NHS Fife have a legal duty

  1. not to discriminate against their employees on the basis of Sex or GR (EA2010)
  2. to provide separate changing rooms for men and women (1992 Workplace Regulations)
  3. to foster good relations between groups with different protected characteristics (Public Service Equality Duty)

None of this means Dr Upton needed special accommodation and none of this is a grey area.
Under 1) - Dr Upton as a male could have been accommodated in the male changing room without any detriment to him - he is a male with the PC of GR and putting him in the female CR was a detriment to the women using it
Under 2) - Dr Upton should never have been allowed to use the female changing room
Under 3) - Dr Upton should have had it explained to him that he couldn't use the female changing room. If he chose to change somewhere else entirely, that was up to him. I don't see why NHS Fife would be under any obligation to provide a third space specifically for a man, who, as far as we know, had not undergone GRS and who was obviously male. Adequate provision already existed.

Floradear · 28/07/2025 17:53

It was the cleverest of times, it was the dumbest of times.
Why was Jane R allowed to interrupt so much and turn NC's X exam into a debate? (Again!)
My law knowledge is Rumpole, Perry Mason and The Lincoln Lawyer. So a bit vague. Even Horace was known to object and point out relevance.

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 17:54

@WandaSiri the simple answer is that being transgender is a protected characteristic. SP wasn’t the only party with relevant protected characteristics. The NHS could have easily found themselves being taken to an employment tribunal by DU. This is fundamentally why they supported DU and not SP - they did not think SP would bring tribunal claims.

InterrobangsArePureBias · 28/07/2025 17:56

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 16:42

Of course. It's sharing patient information outside of necessary work duties. In an online space that isn't protected. Breach of patient confidentiality. Grounds for suspension and investigation. Plus possible referral to the NMC

If you’ve looked through NMC sanctions and hearings, or attended a virtual or in-person meeting, it’s common that nurses and midwives face disciplinaries and hearings over offences deemed less grave than disclosure of patient details.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/hearings/hearings-sanctions/

Extravirginolive · 28/07/2025 17:56

Starmer is at the racist hotel right now, being made a fool of by Trump.

It is funny.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 17:56

I think it boils down to whether people think jokes are actually what you think irl.. i would argue i have a sick sense of humour and yet i dont hold any of these views in my real life its just jokes. On the other side of the coin i do find some jokes absolutely offensive but don’t judge people who dont because we all share a different life experience i find some gay jokes cos my sister is gay but i dont expect everyone to feel the same way i do and if someone tells a gay joke i dont immediately go to homophobia more i think i wish they hadn’t told that joke in front of me, difference between me and the NHS lot is if i dont like something i generally say it lol

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