Page 39 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

nauticant · 2025-07-28T11:33:10+00:00

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity. The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.) The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February. Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [[mailto:EmploymentTribunalEnquiriesScotland@justice.gov.uk EmploymentTribunalEnquiriesScotland@justice.gov.uk]] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here: [[https://www.drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view]] The hearing is being live tweeted by [[https://x.com/tribunaltweets x.com/tribunaltweets]] and there's additional information here: [[https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005]] and [[https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6 tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6]]. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: [[https://www.archive.ph/WSSjg archive.ph/WSSjg]]. An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: [[https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets nitter.net/tribunaltweets]] or [[https://www.nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets]] Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards]] Thread 41: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41]] 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025 Thread 42: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42]] 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025 Thread 43: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43]] 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025 Thread 44: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44]] 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 18:20

There was a nurse whom was referred to the NMC for (playfully) pinching a patients chip from their dinner plate. If that gets a referral then LM's patient breach in the chat should definitely be up there. Particularly now that it's public knowledge.

Aliksa · 28/07/2025 18:20

@GarlicMetre no, but this case is being tried in the court of public opinion. Fife will likely lose the actual case; but they “win” and so do the TRAs if they can paint SP as a racist homophobic witch. It all ties into the argument that anyone GC is a baddie. It’s a PR nightmare for gender critics.

Plus, if SP has flagrantly shared racist jokes with colleagues then that demonstrates she has poor judgement and likely to be stirring up trouble and bad feeling.

I am disappointed but I do get it - without being too condescending SP is a wc Scotswoman living in a tough area. I know lots of lads and girls who have told homophobic, racist and sexist jokes in my career who have far less excuse not to “know better”. There’s really no excuse for it but I’m not surprised it still happens.

PeonyPatch · 28/07/2025 18:20

CapabilityBrownsHaHa · 28/07/2025 18:15

Oooof. That was a hard read today. I think tomorrow will also not be easy. At least we can now see the point of the foreshadowing by JR on Sandie's character. I think Sandie will have a rough go of it from JR. Even if it's not pertinent to her right to legal protections.

This exactly. Are they clutching at straws trying to attack her character here? I’m wondering what relevance it has… it seems somewhat of a stretch…

Obviousky it doesn’t look good but it doesn’t feel that relevant to the case to me…

As a pp said, what has this got to do with her legal protections in the context of being biological female in a supposed same-sex changing area?

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 18:20

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 18:16

I am not sure whether I should say this because I don't condone racism, but here goes...by far the MOST shocking things about those jokes is that somebody was making jokes at all in the context of a flood that had killed thousands, right? If some of the same joke-mechanisms (Mustafa for must have a, for example) had been used in the context of, I don't know, a big successful sporting event, they'd still be racist but much less shocking - more puerile (sic).

But...these people are A&E nurses. They see death, including quite horrible death, all the time. We heard about "dark humour" from people who deal closely with death, but we don't usually see it quoted. I wonder whether we ought to be trying to subtract out the shockingness of joking in the context of death; and if we did, I wonder if we'd be left with more offensiveness than could have been found on the BBC not so very long ago.

This is an interesting point actually. Gallows humour.

Binglebong · 28/07/2025 18:21

HappierTimesAhead · 28/07/2025 18:19

Jokes/comments Puns/not puns

Largely irrelevant to me, they are horribly racist and someone sharing them is clearly a racist.

I think it's pretty disappointing that some posters are trying to defend them.

I'm not defending them. They are bad,I think i was expecting worse (and yes, i have heard plenty worse as I grew up in a not nice area). So it started with relief when i first read them, on the second read very nasty.

Not excused.

Cailleach1 · 28/07/2025 18:21

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:18

May be you are right i just remember the witness saying there were 4 of them maybe that was about something else i am confused this has been a arguably bad day for SP 😬

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Four pages, I think.

Niminy · 28/07/2025 18:21

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 18:16

I am not sure whether I should say this because I don't condone racism, but here goes...by far the MOST shocking things about those jokes is that somebody was making jokes at all in the context of a flood that had killed thousands, right? If some of the same joke-mechanisms (Mustafa for must have a, for example) had been used in the context of, I don't know, a big successful sporting event, they'd still be racist but much less shocking - more puerile (sic).

But...these people are A&E nurses. They see death, including quite horrible death, all the time. We heard about "dark humour" from people who deal closely with death, but we don't usually see it quoted. I wonder whether we ought to be trying to subtract out the shockingness of joking in the context of death; and if we did, I wonder if we'd be left with more offensiveness than could have been found on the BBC not so very long ago.

I knew someone once who did research (as a sociolinguist) into disaster jokes. Apparently the average time from a disaster happening to the circulation of jokes relating to it is 4 hours. It's common for numerous jokes relating to the disaster to appear very quickly, and it's common for the same joke to appear simultaneously in multiple places, and for jokes to spread very rapidly. This convo was pre-internet, I imagine even more the case now. Disaster jokes are invariably in very poor taste. They sit on the boundary between just about ok/total yuck. That looks very much like what we are seeing in these jokes.

Nevertrustacop · 28/07/2025 18:22

I just don't get why she or anyone tbh would post this stuff all together just once in a seven year period. I don't think I've ever met someone who if a racist is not a racist all the time. Or at least more than once every seven years. That said I don't condone the jokes and I think I would have objected at the time in the group. But I just can't make sense of it.

FloridaCat · 28/07/2025 18:22

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 18:16

Because she was in like-minded company and knew it was a safe space for her little 'jokes'?

And she wasn't bloody wrong, as Lindsey proved today.

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It would seem that way.

Everyone involved in the case seems pretty vile or clueless or both. NHS Fife is a heaving mass of toxicity.

PeonyPatch · 28/07/2025 18:22

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 18:20

This is an interesting point actually. Gallows humour.

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True…

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 18:23

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 18:16

I am not sure whether I should say this because I don't condone racism, but here goes...by far the MOST shocking things about those jokes is that somebody was making jokes at all in the context of a flood that had killed thousands, right? If some of the same joke-mechanisms (Mustafa for must have a, for example) had been used in the context of, I don't know, a big successful sporting event, they'd still be racist but much less shocking - more puerile (sic).

But...these people are A&E nurses. They see death, including quite horrible death, all the time. We heard about "dark humour" from people who deal closely with death, but we don't usually see it quoted. I wonder whether we ought to be trying to subtract out the shockingness of joking in the context of death; and if we did, I wonder if we'd be left with more offensiveness than could have been found on the BBC not so very long ago.

I imagine she’s going to say something similar to that when she is questioned tomorrow. I think she needs to apologise for what she shared and lean in to it being unprofessional, to show that she has credibility. Plus these are tangential to her claims so minimal risk in her leaning in, showing humility and apologising.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:23

HappierTimesAhead · 28/07/2025 18:19

Jokes/comments Puns/not puns

Largely irrelevant to me, they are horribly racist and someone sharing them is clearly a racist.

I think it's pretty disappointing that some posters are trying to defend them.

not exactly defending just saying everyone has a different sense of humour and someone telling one joke like that could probably get away with it as just inappropriate humour but that many in one day i would definitely have took her aside and said you know you come across as incredibly racist right? And thats what she is going to have to defend tomorrow 😬

Jerabilis · 28/07/2025 18:25

Niminy · 28/07/2025 18:21

I knew someone once who did research (as a sociolinguist) into disaster jokes. Apparently the average time from a disaster happening to the circulation of jokes relating to it is 4 hours. It's common for numerous jokes relating to the disaster to appear very quickly, and it's common for the same joke to appear simultaneously in multiple places, and for jokes to spread very rapidly. This convo was pre-internet, I imagine even more the case now. Disaster jokes are invariably in very poor taste. They sit on the boundary between just about ok/total yuck. That looks very much like what we are seeing in these jokes.

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That doesn't surprise me. I heard my first joke about 9/11 on the day it happened. Same for 7/7.

Most of those jokes were puns that I wouldn't consider in any way racist. A few absolutely clearly cross the line.

I've definitely heard worse / more edgy jokes than those from pretty mainstream comedians.

BoeotianNightmare · 28/07/2025 18:25

Haven't followed everything from today yet but the "jokes" are disgusting. Looking forward to seeing what SP has to say about them.
It's it really realistic that this will all be over tomorrow?

prh47bridge · 28/07/2025 18:25

WarriorN · 28/07/2025 17:09

im confused; SP was struck off for protesting against DU being in the women’s changing rooms.

what do these messages have to do with nhs fife’s claim that was justified?

For clarity, SP has not been struck off. She has been suspended and suffered various other detriments, but she has not been referred to the NMC.

PeonyPatch · 28/07/2025 18:25

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:23

not exactly defending just saying everyone has a different sense of humour and someone telling one joke like that could probably get away with it as just inappropriate humour but that many in one day i would definitely have took her aside and said you know you come across as incredibly racist right? And thats what she is going to have to defend tomorrow 😬

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agree. I’m not defending either. unacceptable frankly. It reminds me of Frankie Boyle - his humour very often teeters on the unacceptable, it’s uncomfortable.

I don’t wish for the case to be derailed though?!

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:25

Cailleach1 · 28/07/2025 18:21

Four pages, I think.

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Ah ok that makes more sense my apologies!

HereticMyrtleLion · 28/07/2025 18:25

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:18

May be you are right i just remember the witness saying there were 4 of them maybe that was about something else i am confused this has been a arguably bad day for SP 😬

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I think this was one set of “jokes” shared by SP, and LN said there were three more.

Switcher · 28/07/2025 18:26

Well that's really very disappointing.

Totallygripped · 28/07/2025 18:26

Charabanc · 28/07/2025 18:06

That's because you don't need the validation, as you are an actual woman.

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V interesting article in Times the other day re Lionesses/top female athletes and bouncy mammaries. Have to say back in my 20s mine were beautiful things to behold. Perky 34 Bs.Oh to wind back the tit clock 40 years later...

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 28/07/2025 18:28

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 14:59

I agree the P word is now widely accepted as a racist slur and should never be used today.
In my experience when it was used in the 70's/80's, particularly when followed by the word 'shop' it was a form of shorthand. Not in a derogatory manner but the same as saying aussie instead of Australian.
Today is completely different though.

I am disappointed she made these 'jokes'. It does now paint her in a different light to me.

I reckon her reputation will be fine amongst the Reform/Tommy Robinson crowd but gone to complete shit with many others.

And this is definitely going to make headlines and give the TRA and woke bekinders plenty of ammo.

Bet there will be plenty of calls for her to be struck off now. (not that she should be)

If there was a use for SAD TIMES, I reckon this would be it.

Not surprised JR saved this till last, it makes Sandie look fucking awful.

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It’s even used in that context in an episode of Only Fools and Horses.

Del and Rodney need to buy something (it might a Christmas episode), and Del says (completely without rancor) ‘there’s bound to be a little P* shop open.

Work class people said it, and still say it.

PeonyPatch · 28/07/2025 18:28

Totallygripped · 28/07/2025 18:26

V interesting article in Times the other day re Lionesses/top female athletes and bouncy mammaries. Have to say back in my 20s mine were beautiful things to behold. Perky 34 Bs.Oh to wind back the tit clock 40 years later...

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lol, that comment made me chuckle

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:28

HereticMyrtleLion · 28/07/2025 18:25

I think this was one set of “jokes” shared by SP, and LN said there were three more.

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Thats where i would actually take issue is not with just one but my god that is a lot of dark humour and kinda only pointing in one direction 😬

DrPrunesqualer · 28/07/2025 18:30

HappierTimesAhead · 28/07/2025 18:19

Jokes/comments Puns/not puns

Largely irrelevant to me, they are horribly racist and someone sharing them is clearly a racist.

I think it's pretty disappointing that some posters are trying to defend them.

Even the judge said they were tangential

Its not making light of them it’s just pointing out it’s not relevant to whether Sandie has a right to a single sex changing room.

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 18:30

I think after today I need to go watch something inane on Netflix

Link to next thread as this one is nearly done.

Although I wouldn't dare post on it til this one is full 😉

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46