NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Someone pointed out last week that it may be he’s made up his mind and doesn’t want to give any grounds for appeal, so he’s letting these discussions run their course.

sorry if this has already been asked/answered I haven’t read the whole thread just the tribualtweets thread unroll.

I thought the Dr Upton hadn’t taken hormones (which are unnecessary anyway as he is already a woman) so why is he wearing a bra? If he doesn’t have boobs there is surely no need and would one even fit? Is there a special shop that sells men’s sized bras for a wider chest but no boobs?

I would happily never wear a bra again but it seems very strange to wear one with no need.

Do we know anything further about the conversation between NHS Fife and the admin person at SM? Was this Friday just past, or the preceeding Friday (statement day)? Why contact SM? I hope that SM take action for defamation.

🤣 that made me LOL 😆 😂
Please bring back the laugh emoji.

Well the jokes weren't nearly as bad as I thought. Mainly puns at least to start with. One or two very unpleasant. I wouldn't share them but I can kind of understand it, you share for the light ones and the others go with them. They get worse as you go down so you've already been slightly desensitised by each one before.

Oh he is 100% gonna take them to a tribunal for something when this is over just not sure what yet!!

It's protected in terms of not discriminating in terms of jobs/housing/etc. And I think that may only apply to those who have medically 'transitioned'.

There was never any requirement to let a man change in the women's changing room.

As we have seen today, the evidence re SP’s racism was limited to 4 racist jokes on a private What’s App group, that the other members had posted items that would incriminate themselves. In the internal investigation this chat was probably not submitted for obvious reasons. I suspect that all the participants would have ended up in a disciplinary if they had. So they were only left with here say, which was not sufficient. All seven of them would have been bricking it and the tension between them has probably destroyed their once solid friendship group.

I think that once the doctors instigated the initial complaint against SP the group exploded and SP ( the least senior member of staff) was hung out to dry. SP probably was devastated/angry that fellow nurses/close friends turned on her and a lot of mudslinging went on. They thought they had silenced her, she couldn’t use the What’s App convo to defend herself in the internal investigation, but neither could they. So stalemate.

NC has made a calculated move by submitting the whole transcription. Yes it shows SP holds racist views but it also drops the rest of the now rather smug group right in it. The vitriol we saw today from LN was acute and not that of someone who has been waiting to give evidence for months. They dropped the bundle on Friday knowing these two witnesses would react like hissing snakes.
Her reaction re SP was very real and very recent. Submitting the bundle has opened up a whole new nightmare for the “ be kind” sisters.

colleagues less likely to be keen on her company when she gets back to work

Guess the judge has ordered an extra supply of red pens to cross out all the irrelevant stuff he has heard.

I was responding to someone who sent a long response to a message of mine. In my previous message I said the NHS never sought legal advice and fucked up. From the start the NHS was never concerned about SP bringing tribunal claims against them, and I stand by that. They were significantly more cautious with DU.

Well if he hasnt had hormones but considers himself a woman a bra would affirm that and there is no point looking at it through your female lens because he is not female and probably gets off on wearing a bra not realising most women would not wear one if they had any choice in the matter!!

I can answer that one. Yes, there is. A friend of mine does IT support for a woman who set up a company selling bras for wide backs and small cup sizes (as this was what she needed and she struggled to find them). She soon found her bras were extremely popular with male customers.

Yeah completely. People are not perfect, as others have said more eloquently than me. Rights is rights.

Yes I make that point further on in the same comment.

Oh god you didnt have to share that!! 😂🤣🙈

Finally back form the beach
Fuck me. I'm on page 19, it's a roller coaster
Essence de FAFO floods the tribunal

@Angrymum22 sorry but that is not true.

here is a link to all the comments SP shared:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/5297419/sandie-peggie-nhs-fife-flood-victims-racist-posts/

https://imgur.com/a/VcMfZEx (no paywall)

These were read out by Jane Russell in court today:

On August 31 that year, Ms Peggie shared the following offensive messages in a group chat:

1. Rumour has it that the floods in Pakistan were started by a suicide plumber.

2. There’s a new curry been brought out in aid of the Pakistani flood disaster victims. It’s a chicken bury auntie, served with a nan dead and poppa gone.

3. The BNP have donated 6,000 crocodiles to the Pakistani flood appeal.

4. The Queen has sent a letter of condolence to the Pakistani president. She wanted to mention that Britain has plenty of spare p*kis if they want some back.

5. I bet little Mohammed isn’t having to walk 3 miles fetch water now! I think I’ll ask for my 1 a month donation back.

6. What do you call a Pakistani flood survivor…Mustaf a dinghy.

7. What goes around comes around. Pakistanis have been flooding Britain for years.

8. From space Pakistan looks like a giant bowl of coco pops.

9. There is a new diet sweeping Pakistan. It’s called swim fast.

10. Charity single just released for the Pakistani flood disaster…Rain keeps falling on Ahmed.

Lolling at you thinking that "the rest of the working world" starts at 9am 😆

Counsels 5 mins is always 20m 🤣. That’s why judges say “is that barrister time or actual time?”

That's because you don't need the validation, as you are an actual woman.

I keep coming back to Lindsay saying she gave a statement because she felt the public needed to know.

This has clearly been going on for a long time now but it seems she never felt her employers needed to know. The NMC didn't need to know.

Just in the final days of the tribunal, where Fife have been made to look terrible, suddenly it's her duty to show the public what Sandie is really like.

Who's been pulling her strings in these last few weeks?

She's obviously not bright if she thought her own chat wouldn't be scrutinised.

Or was she given assurances that her testimony would be on the final days of the hearing and there wouldn't be any time to challenge it all?

On the basis of what, though? What detriment would he have suffered by being in the male changing room with the other male doctors?
Privacy does not factor here because he is an obvious male and privacy is a qualified right anyway.
SP wasn’t the only party with relevant protected characteristics.
A male with the PC of GR is a male - a subset of men. GR does not trump sex.

I agree that he might well have taken them to ET, very possibly. But he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I've lost count of all the buses people have ended up under.

Nit picking here, but the protected characteristic is Gender Reassignment, rather than being transgender. Helpfully from the EA:

1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

BUT, that does not mean that they should be treated as the opposite sex for all purposes, only that they can't be treated less favourably than someone without that PC. So my understanding is that for Dr Upton, he should not have been treated any less favourably than the other male doctors (Dr U doesn't have a GRC, but even if he did, he still would not have the right to access opposite SSS as far as I am aware)