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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 12:33

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

OP posts:
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13
DrBlackbird · 28/07/2025 18:30

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 17:23

Now Nicola's girlfriend is tweeting about how nice and supportive Sandie and her family have been towards their relationship.

Probably a good thing she's not Pakistani though (sadly).

What is certainly true is how people can hold prejudiced views towards a whole demographic but yet be absolutely fine with individuals. I’ve seen this time and time again.

OP posts:
Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:31

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 28/07/2025 18:28

It’s even used in that context in an episode of Only Fools and Horses.

Del and Rodney need to buy something (it might a Christmas episode), and Del says (completely without rancor) ‘there’s bound to be a little P* shop open.

Work class people said it, and still say it.

Oh thats not the only time they say it in OFAH i was watching one a couple of months back with one of Dels old GFs she has a child and he gives the kid a 50p piece and says go down the ‘p*kis’ and treat yourself or something, i was kinda taken a back but then was like this was a long time ago and wouldnt happen today.. we live and learn!

FloridaCat · 28/07/2025 18:31

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 28/07/2025 18:28

It’s even used in that context in an episode of Only Fools and Horses.

Del and Rodney need to buy something (it might a Christmas episode), and Del says (completely without rancor) ‘there’s bound to be a little P* shop open.

Work class people said it, and still say it.

Racist working class people say it, ffs.

Gagagardener · 28/07/2025 18:31

I have primary-age GDs staying, so scrolling through screens is not possible. I'd be really grateful if someone could give me, or point me to, a summary of today's events. Thank you.

PeonyPatch · 28/07/2025 18:31

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 28/07/2025 18:28

It’s even used in that context in an episode of Only Fools and Horses.

Del and Rodney need to buy something (it might a Christmas episode), and Del says (completely without rancor) ‘there’s bound to be a little P* shop open.

Work class people said it, and still say it.

But why did JR raise this? Is she throwing SP under the bus? I’m wholly disappointed, in SP, but also because it’s going to give TRAs more ammunition to attack SP’s character and, imo, derail the original legal issue altogether.

That is a trend for TRAs btw - from what I’ve noticed. Usually in weak arguments/positions, people will go on to attack/insult!

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 18:31

Totallygripped · 28/07/2025 18:26

V interesting article in Times the other day re Lionesses/top female athletes and bouncy mammaries. Have to say back in my 20s mine were beautiful things to behold. Perky 34 Bs.Oh to wind back the tit clock 40 years later...

I just wish I didn't have to tuck them into my pj bottoms to stop them flapping around!

WarriorN · 28/07/2025 18:32

Gagagardener · 28/07/2025 18:31

I have primary-age GDs staying, so scrolling through screens is not possible. I'd be really grateful if someone could give me, or point me to, a summary of today's events. Thank you.

Boswell today is usually a good place to go to

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1949809559062675896?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 28/07/2025 18:32

WithSilverBells · 28/07/2025 14:50

God I hope I go to hell where all the sinners are, and not to heaven with the saints🙏

I'd expect hell to be full of self righteous hypocrites, and heaven to have some surprising people in it (if we're assuming they are literal concepts).

Charabanc · 28/07/2025 18:32

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 18:16

At the start of questioning LN, Jane Russell read these out and the witness was saying it’s racist etc. So I think all of these comments are in evidence in the tribunal:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1949818252294545577?s=46

Edited

LN There are 10 messages in the group chat.

Did they seriously not think that their carefully edited version of the group chat would be blown up?

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:33

I thought you was gone 🥰

Charabanc · 28/07/2025 18:33

FloridaCat · 28/07/2025 18:31

Racist working class people say it, ffs.

Also Prince Harry.

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 18:34

I can't get my head around people saying it's normal and everyday for people to use racist language and find racist - and sexist etc - jokes 'funny'.

In what world is that normal and everyday in 2025? Anybody who doesn't know that words like the p word or the n word are deeply offensive needs to get out more.
And anyone who thinks it's funny to insist on using words like that although they know they are deeply offensive is making a statement about who they are and what their values are.

Let me tell you a story about an older working class woman, a neighbour of my aunt and uncle, who would have grown up only hearing the kind of words that aren't acceptable now.

I used to go to the shops for her, 'do the messages' as we say here, when I visited my aunt and uncle. You can give a date to this story because there had been a catastrophic earthquake, rather than floods, in Pakistan. Tens of thousands of people died.
When she gave me her shopping list, she asked me to pop in to a shop on the way which was run by Pakistani people.
She asked me to find out if their families back home were all right, and to tell them that she was remembering them in her prayers every night.

She wasn't anybody special, just an old working class Dublin woman who had probably left school at 14 and had worked every day of her life from teens to retirement.

Her instinctive reaction to thousands of people dying in Pakistan was to pray for them, not to tell jokes. She recognized their humanity rather than their comedic value.
.

Lunde · 28/07/2025 18:34

Angrymum22 · 28/07/2025 17:59

As we have seen today, the evidence re SP’s racism was limited to 4 racist jokes on a private What’s App group, that the other members had posted items that would incriminate themselves. In the internal investigation this chat was probably not submitted for obvious reasons. I suspect that all the participants would have ended up in a disciplinary if they had. So they were only left with here say, which was not sufficient. All seven of them would have been bricking it and the tension between them has probably destroyed their once solid friendship group.

I think that once the doctors instigated the initial complaint against SP the group exploded and SP ( the least senior member of staff) was hung out to dry. SP probably was devastated/angry that fellow nurses/close friends turned on her and a lot of mudslinging went on. They thought they had silenced her, she couldn’t use the What’s App convo to defend herself in the internal investigation, but neither could they. So stalemate.

NC has made a calculated move by submitting the whole transcription. Yes it shows SP holds racist views but it also drops the rest of the now rather smug group right in it. The vitriol we saw today from LN was acute and not that of someone who has been waiting to give evidence for months. They dropped the bundle on Friday knowing these two witnesses would react like hissing snakes.
Her reaction re SP was very real and very recent. Submitting the bundle has opened up a whole new nightmare for the “ be kind” sisters.

I see why JR spent hours this morning arguing against admitting all of the messages.

She was hoping to just admit the 4 (of 2600) that show SP poorly and not open the messages of her own witnesses to scrutiny.

I think LN came across as the worst type of hypocrite - laughing along with the comments, even egging it along and then clutching pearls months and years later.

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 18:36

I think SP’s comments are awful but I’m under the impression she was sharing memes or something as opposed to that being her own words (not that this changes much, the comments are still disgusting).

However I do think NC did a good job at discrediting LN. LN apparently sent messages about SP getting a massive payment due to the tribunal, speaks volumes about her own motivations

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:38

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 18:34

I can't get my head around people saying it's normal and everyday for people to use racist language and find racist - and sexist etc - jokes 'funny'.

In what world is that normal and everyday in 2025? Anybody who doesn't know that words like the p word or the n word are deeply offensive needs to get out more.
And anyone who thinks it's funny to insist on using words like that although they know they are deeply offensive is making a statement about who they are and what their values are.

Let me tell you a story about an older working class woman, a neighbour of my aunt and uncle, who would have grown up only hearing the kind of words that aren't acceptable now.

I used to go to the shops for her, 'do the messages' as we say here, when I visited my aunt and uncle. You can give a date to this story because there had been a catastrophic earthquake, rather than floods, in Pakistan. Tens of thousands of people died.
When she gave me her shopping list, she asked me to pop in to a shop on the way which was run by Pakistani people.
She asked me to find out if their families back home were all right, and to tell them that she was remembering them in her prayers every night.

She wasn't anybody special, just an old working class Dublin woman who had probably left school at 14 and had worked every day of her life from teens to retirement.

Her instinctive reaction to thousands of people dying in Pakistan was to pray for them, not to tell jokes. She recognized their humanity rather than their comedic value.
.

Everyone has a different sense of humour and psychologists have said its how some people deal with issues/disasters thats why as a previous poster said the jokes tend to circulate very quickly its just human nature we find humour in the most morbid things as it helps deal with it and takes the sting away from how horrible something is.. like i said the time i was in a DV relationship was when i found DV the funniest i wasnt looking for it and wouldnt repeat it but thats the was human nature is.

FloridaCat · 28/07/2025 18:38

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 18:34

I can't get my head around people saying it's normal and everyday for people to use racist language and find racist - and sexist etc - jokes 'funny'.

In what world is that normal and everyday in 2025? Anybody who doesn't know that words like the p word or the n word are deeply offensive needs to get out more.
And anyone who thinks it's funny to insist on using words like that although they know they are deeply offensive is making a statement about who they are and what their values are.

Let me tell you a story about an older working class woman, a neighbour of my aunt and uncle, who would have grown up only hearing the kind of words that aren't acceptable now.

I used to go to the shops for her, 'do the messages' as we say here, when I visited my aunt and uncle. You can give a date to this story because there had been a catastrophic earthquake, rather than floods, in Pakistan. Tens of thousands of people died.
When she gave me her shopping list, she asked me to pop in to a shop on the way which was run by Pakistani people.
She asked me to find out if their families back home were all right, and to tell them that she was remembering them in her prayers every night.

She wasn't anybody special, just an old working class Dublin woman who had probably left school at 14 and had worked every day of her life from teens to retirement.

Her instinctive reaction to thousands of people dying in Pakistan was to pray for them, not to tell jokes. She recognized their humanity rather than their comedic value.
.

Thanks for this post.

I find the wriggling about from some posters who are trying to minimise or excuse the racism in those jokes really distasteful.

SerafinasGoose · 28/07/2025 18:39

Lunde · 28/07/2025 17:17

It looks like JR has given up the actual case and is going for "wee Sandie wasn't very nice"

You often see this tactic used against women

Well, the grenade has certainly exploded but it's also harmed the thrower.

All today has revealed is that NHSF is a complete dumpster fire of racism and toxicity, SP included, that NHSF apparently didn't give two shits about protecting staff or patients who are not white, that they have no respect for patient confidentiality, and that participants on the chat, namely LN and not SP exclusively, hold some repulsive views whilst hypocritically denouncing SP for also holding some disgusting views. Also LN's hostility to SP, and motivation of getting her struck off because she doesn't personally happen to like her, was very skilfully revealed.

How unedifying. LN has played right into NC's hands, only allowing her to cast further sunlight on what a hideous employer NHSF really are.

NC is formidable. What a brilliant lawyer. Meanwhile LN has proved a perfect exemplar of a 'useful idiot'. FAFO indeed.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 18:39

Edit - DV jokes the funniest.. jeepers i dont find DV funny my goodness!!! 🤦‍♀️

Niminy · 28/07/2025 18:40

I feel a bit disturbed by the discussion of the jokes. Is there any suggestion that SP actually made them up, or was she simply repeating them (perhaps cutting and pasting from elsewhere?)

In any case this is part of a trend isn't it: there have been several recent cases of police officers dismissed over whatsapp group messages, a Labour MP had the whip removed -- and there are definitely more examples out there.

But do we have the right to say things that cross what other people determine is a line in what we regard as a private conversation? Which of us hasn't at some time hasn't said something that some people would now find offensive? I have to say I find it really awful that people have drawn a straight line between things that happened in a private chat and how SP might be at work.

The bottom line I think is that we shouldn't bring our whole selves to work.

Tallisker · 28/07/2025 18:40

Totallygripped · 28/07/2025 18:26

V interesting article in Times the other day re Lionesses/top female athletes and bouncy mammaries. Have to say back in my 20s mine were beautiful things to behold. Perky 34 Bs.Oh to wind back the tit clock 40 years later...

Mine stopped traffic in my 20s 🤣

Extravirginolive · 28/07/2025 18:41

FloridaCat · 28/07/2025 18:31

Racist working class people say it, ffs.

What about the wealthy Indian HR Director friend of mine. He says it. What race is he racist about? His own? What's the rules?

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 18:43

@Niminy I believed the language used is she “shared them”. I’m thinking she shared memes as opposed to writing it herself. Similar to what her husband did on Facebook (he was questioned about this at the tribunal).

Lunde · 28/07/2025 18:44

Niminy · 28/07/2025 18:40

I feel a bit disturbed by the discussion of the jokes. Is there any suggestion that SP actually made them up, or was she simply repeating them (perhaps cutting and pasting from elsewhere?)

In any case this is part of a trend isn't it: there have been several recent cases of police officers dismissed over whatsapp group messages, a Labour MP had the whip removed -- and there are definitely more examples out there.

But do we have the right to say things that cross what other people determine is a line in what we regard as a private conversation? Which of us hasn't at some time hasn't said something that some people would now find offensive? I have to say I find it really awful that people have drawn a straight line between things that happened in a private chat and how SP might be at work.

The bottom line I think is that we shouldn't bring our whole selves to work.

It was said they weren't her jokes but retweets or similar

SerafinasGoose · 28/07/2025 18:45

Niminy · 28/07/2025 18:40

I feel a bit disturbed by the discussion of the jokes. Is there any suggestion that SP actually made them up, or was she simply repeating them (perhaps cutting and pasting from elsewhere?)

In any case this is part of a trend isn't it: there have been several recent cases of police officers dismissed over whatsapp group messages, a Labour MP had the whip removed -- and there are definitely more examples out there.

But do we have the right to say things that cross what other people determine is a line in what we regard as a private conversation? Which of us hasn't at some time hasn't said something that some people would now find offensive? I have to say I find it really awful that people have drawn a straight line between things that happened in a private chat and how SP might be at work.

The bottom line I think is that we shouldn't bring our whole selves to work.

I hate that trite phrase. My employer gets more than enough of my professional self; they do not need, nor would want to see, my 'whole' self. Some shit's private. But of late there have been demands for more and more of our personal information, to which they (employer) assume a right simply because they've asked for it. An expectation of privacy seems viewed as an imposition these days. We want your pronouns, your allyship signalled on lanyards and email signatures, and info about your sexuality. And we're not going until we've got them.

To quote the fabulous NC: 'No'.

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