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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 12:33

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

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Firealarms · 28/07/2025 17:29

Jerseycreamtea · 28/07/2025 17:20

I had an interesting conversation with a colleague today. Both NHS, colleague is a Dr and I am not. Colleague agrees with DU as I expected as a member of BMA and they tend to stick together in our organisation. However we both agreed a) it’s not a good look for NHS and b) would you want these people treating you? Ot
Making these policies about you and your working life? They may be totally competent but not exactly professional .

The thing is, at the heart of the case I do believe the NHS had a duty to accommodate both SP and DU. DU initial complaint was in a legal grey area.

Realistically, the NHS should have sought to diffuse tensions and supported both parties and taken a balanced approach etc especially as they had no internal process/legal guidance on this situation - instead they used this as an opportunity to get rid of SP. That’s where they fucked up.

Personally, I hope that any public sector worker who is racist/homophobic gets sacked. But the NHS scored an own goal by using these allegations as a legal defence against SP, whilst never carrying out any investigation into these allegations and allowing her to essentially go unchecked. It’s hard to understand the seriousness of these comments made by SP when the NHS picks and chooses when to be outraged by them.

myplace · 28/07/2025 17:30

What an unedifying spectacle. Unpleasant for everyone connected to the hospital whether as staff or patient.

Disclaimer, I haven’t seen the jokes in question. Just read the last few pages of this thread and thought about that group of women sharing that kind of banter, and whether my social media/chat group history is as pure as I’d like to claim.

I can over look an individual sharing a joke which is technically funny but tasteless/inappropriate. As a PP said about a Jimmy Carr joke about domestic violence, sometimes it just works despite the ugliness.

If I scraped the barrel of my conscience, I retold a sexist joke a few years ago, because I was simultaneously shocked and amused by it.

My younger self remembers black jokes about the famine in Ethiopia and the football airline crash. And the space shuttle launch that crashed. A joke about Michael Jackson that was doing the rounds before all the pedophilia stuff.

I’d say they weren’t racist, as the same kind of humour targeted every kind of person.

Now I mix in circles where those kinds of jokes are not shared. I don’t think I’d find them
funny- but can’t be sure because it’s the shock value that tends to make them work.

Without a doubt they are still doing the rounds, so a huge chunk of people still find that kind of humour amusing. I think you can argue they aren’t racist, as the same kind of humour targeted every kind of person. Tasteless, yes. Disturbing, yes.

ETA typo

BeLemonNow · 28/07/2025 17:30

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 17:27

I could see myself nervously snorting in response to something terrible someone has said, out of shock/incredulity.

But I'm not familiar with the phenomenon of the involuntary trigger finger which posts 😂😂😂 in response to someone posting bigoted or unpalatable jokes in a chat group. She laughed cos she agreed/thought it was funny.

Agreed and in WhatsApp it's very easy to remove or change the emoji on messages, it's not like a typo.

This whole organisation seems absolutely toxic.

LeFromage · 28/07/2025 17:30

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 28/07/2025 17:07

Can a legal bod give an opinion on what argument any of this today could have (even theoretically) contributed to, other than:

  • SP was heading for a suspension anyway because she was nasty (not something they have actually argued and anyway the recent investigation showed nothing)
  • SP is racist therefore must also be transphobic and therefore was only acting out of hostility to DU and not because she believes only F people should be in F changing room?
  • SP is nasty therefore doesn't matter what we did, she deserved it?

Obviously none of these are competent arguments against what is being brought.

not a practising lawyer but i have background in this area (rusty dusty knowledge ) and I was wondering how LN’s evidence will be weighed up and I think it might be nil nil for both sides and her evidence will be sidelined as weightless

E.g racism on SP’s floods “joke” we have Pakistani mixed family (we call it Brit-Pak) , i’d want to see the joke to judge if/ how racist it is (LN laughed at this joke anyway so err hoisted. Own. Petard. Much?). medics are known for having dark humour - these are people day in day out seeing the most vulnerable most hurt extremes of society everyday so I’m not sure I (who can’t handle the sight of blood) would parse / process doing their jobs. As long as it doesn’t breach patient confidentiality and I think Fife via LN will be on the hook for this with iCO. Wonder if ICO will issue statement before Friday?

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:31

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:22

God, FB absolutely trawled the depths of human despair for giggles for years and now he's writing political books and doin' yoga, and I absolutely forgot about it for a while there, you're right.

A bit like Russell brand. But yeah Boyle has a nerve given the shit he used to come out with.

Lunde · 28/07/2025 17:31

NebulousDog · 28/07/2025 17:16

What's happening with the ham sandwich and Irn Bru lady? Are they dispensing with her evidence (or did she just get missed by TT)?

I think it was LN talking to this morning's witness (FW?) - NC took it up with her at the start of her evidence as they they were meant to be in different witness waiting rooms but LN went into FW's and stood partially hidden in the corner. LN claimed 2 reasons

  • charging her phone - obviously the only power socket in the building 🙄
  • discussing a lunch order for an Irn Bru and a ham sandwich

There has been conjecture that the "lunch order" was a code between them for what to say at the ET
Irn Bru - very orange = Trump
Ham Sandwich = a comment about bacon/muslims - but NC pointed out that the actual comment came from a (male but I haven't checked his chromosomes) paramedic

Interestingly I think both of them did mention Trump - however LN found the tables turned as she hadn't expected her own messages in the chat group to be examined.

BeLemonNow · 28/07/2025 17:31

@myplace joke used the word "pakis" - obviously that's an offensive term.

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 17:31

For some reason I really feel the urge for a can of Irn Bru with my tea!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45
RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:32

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:31

A bit like Russell brand. But yeah Boyle has a nerve given the shit he used to come out with.

I was thinking of Brand too but I can't remember anything he said, weirdly, at all. Only that he tried to rebrand (oh god here come the puns)

ThatCyanCat · 28/07/2025 17:32

Am I missing something? Is there anything suggesting SP is racist and homophobic that isn't pure hearsay?

Largesso · 28/07/2025 17:32

Binglebong · 28/07/2025 17:01

Today was horrible all round. No one came out of it well and really it had zero relevance to the case.

I respectfully disagree. There has been lots of references to these issues in vague terms and JR has finally been put in a position here she has had to produce the documentation.

Part of NHSF argument is that because SP was known to be an out and out bigot generally this amounts to patient safety concerns. They are arguing that her behaviour towards DU is transphobic and that fits into a broader paradigm of her being racist and homophobic.

They are arguing this for two reasons:

  1. to justify the extended suspension of SP and to find the means to get rid of her so they don’t have to deal with the issue at hand.

  2. to ensure that the TRA lobby stay onside because the Stonewall message is that transphobes are
    also right wing racists and homophobes. Therefore if you can prove one the other must also be true. This is necessary because whilst the word transphobia has lost its sting through misuse racism and homophobia have retained theirs so are being coralled into the general state of accusations to provide sufficient anti (rather than upping the anti) for their actions and Jack of fairness.

This came to a head today because JR has probably been instructed to use evidence that she has previously not included in the bundle because it is a bit dodgy and, I suspect, she didn’t really want to produce wither FW or LN as witnesses if she didn’t have to.

The message trails have only been submitted recently, you can tell by their page numbers, and some only on Friday.

They are pinning their hopes, I think, on the panel being of that view too.

It was important that it came to light. Many of us have been fully cognisant of the fact that SP will have views that don’t align with our own and, in some cases, we might find offensive. But we are also of the opinion that she does not bring those opinions to her work and does not act on them with regard to patients or colleagues.

She made significant effort to treat DU with respect, has worked with him well and describes him as a good doctor. She raised her issue with SSS professionally, sought advice from senior staff and handles the conversation with DU calmly — something he also confirmed in his testimony.

What today’s evidence proves is that the evidence claiming to show she is a racist, a homophobe and, by association, is very slight indeed.

Most of it comes through the Chinese whispers of gossip.

In the private chat group she never called anyone by a racist term directly. Once in a seven year thread she shared horrible jokes that were racist.

There is no evidence that her views has any effect in how she treated patients or staff. There have been no complaints from patients and only one complaint from a trainee nurse that was dismissed and which was really about her being a bit strict, nothing to do with her purported views.

We live in a pluralistic society and the greatest of the values attaches to that is we can live, and love, and be friends with people, who hold very different views to our own. We all, perhaps, have family members we love but whose views we might find offensive but we still love them.

We can, if we choose, engage in respectful debate and we are also allowed to try and change people’s minds about those views.

Unfortunately, the new left has moved away from a pluralistic position into an autocratic one ‘no debate’ which has replaced discourse with slogans and if we don’t ‘all hail’ the slogan we must be punished.

The evidence of today proves something very very important. Whatever SP’s personal views may be she is a great nurse and doesn’t bring them to bear on her patients or colleagues.

I disagree with the views but I wholly respect that she doesn’t bring them to work and doesn’t make any attempt to antagonise others with them. Clearly the chat group was made up of folk who had similar doubts/ questions and willingness to engage in dodgy sharing.

All this needed an airing and NC made a very strong argument.

KTheGrey · 28/07/2025 17:32

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:14

Just bloody bought Mort today. Thread's costing me a fortune.

Off to abebooks.co.uk with you. You can find nearly everything on there.

Justme56 · 28/07/2025 17:32

Lynsey admitted laughing and sometimes encouraging the jokes, but changed her tune when it came to the ET. it’s weird how these things work!

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:33

KTheGrey · 28/07/2025 17:32

Off to abebooks.co.uk with you. You can find nearly everything on there.

I move between vinted, eBay, WOB and Abebooks looking for bargains because I would have to do something heinous to make money for all these books if I didn't 😆

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 17:34

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:25

Well it's public now that she breached patient confidentiality. You don't discuss patients with people not involved in their care (did everyone in the group chat work on the same ward?) much less on an Internet chat.
I know if I was a Fife employee and they ever tried to discipline me, I'd be saying hang on, what about LM?
They'd be stupid to brush this under the carpet now it's public knowledge. And it is quite a serious offense. I've known nurses to be sacked for less.

At the moment the NHS is very much fixated on fighting SP and trying to show that this case is a SP issue, not a NHS issue. The NHS is not going to admit defeat.

So honestly, I do not think they will look to discipline LN, others in that group chat or others that have shown to be troublesome like KS, as a result of these proceedings. I genuinely do think the public would have to push for any accountability cause at the moment, the NHS is only concerned about SP. I think it’s doubtful that any of the NHS’s witnesses would have provided evidence if they had any suspicion they would get into trouble.

cigarsmokingwoman · 28/07/2025 17:34

my mum came up for a cuppa so I missed much of the tribunal and only caught parts. I mention my mum cause during that conversation, she (west of scotland typical working class woman), made jokes about our catholic neighbours being "tms" and getting a "chnky" for dinner and getting milk from the "p*ki shop"

This is actually very normal conversation in most households, maybe not nice, but normal, and my mum likes catholics and has many friends who are catholics (who can say similar things in return), one of my dad's friends is chinese and my parents socialise with them (and this guy also calls his restaurant a ch*nky restaurant) and we are always polite and friendly with the shopkeepers.

joking about something doesn't necessarily mean there's malice in it. What this is again doing is showing classism in the NHS and forgetting things like free speech - you might not like what someone says but they have the right to say it.

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:35

WarriorN · 28/07/2025 17:19

even if she’s “not very nice” that isn’t what she was struck off for.

and that matters as any woman could have complained about DU.

being nice is irrelevant surely?

Even the accusation that she’s racist, and this is their proof; - she wasn’t struck off for that.

Sandie hasn't been struck off at any point..

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 17:36

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 17:27

I could see myself nervously snorting in response to something terrible someone has said, out of shock/incredulity.

But I'm not familiar with the phenomenon of the involuntary trigger finger which posts 😂😂😂 in response to someone posting bigoted or unpalatable jokes in a chat group. She laughed cos she agreed/thought it was funny.

Well you definitely make a point regarding the ‘involuntary trigger finger’ 😂 i dont think i would even speak share anything i knew could upset or offend anyone you know some people really get off on that i dont!
i think people have thresholds for what they find offensive for a reason and i wouldnt ever cross that, thats why i think SP thought she was in good company which is sad but shes switched on enough to know men arent women so i would think she thought she was in a ‘safe space’ with these ‘friends’!!

Butchyrestingface · 28/07/2025 17:36

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 17:31

For some reason I really feel the urge for a can of Irn Bru with my tea!

I'm off to get masel' some 1901 the noo. Only radioactive levels of sugar will suffice.

Oddly enough, I used to have an Urban Outfitters bedspread just like your throw years ago.

Rightsraptor · 28/07/2025 17:36

What's that Andrea Dworkin quote about women's rights being for ALL women, even those you despise?

Binglebong · 28/07/2025 17:37

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 17:29

The thing is, at the heart of the case I do believe the NHS had a duty to accommodate both SP and DU. DU initial complaint was in a legal grey area.

Realistically, the NHS should have sought to diffuse tensions and supported both parties and taken a balanced approach etc especially as they had no internal process/legal guidance on this situation - instead they used this as an opportunity to get rid of SP. That’s where they fucked up.

Personally, I hope that any public sector worker who is racist/homophobic gets sacked. But the NHS scored an own goal by using these allegations as a legal defence against SP, whilst never carrying out any investigation into these allegations and allowing her to essentially go unchecked. It’s hard to understand the seriousness of these comments made by SP when the NHS picks and chooses when to be outraged by them.

To Sandie's credit the only time it ever seems to have appeared in a work setting was complaining about someone's lunch and we don't know if that was "I wish people wouldn't cook smelly curry in shared kitchens, it's as bad as kippers" or "Fucking hell that looks like you're eating actual shit".

You shouldn't get prosecuted for thoughts. If she shared them in a work setting then absolutely fair enough. But it wouldn't be investigated at NHSF anyway as it's not a white male having sad times.

DrPrunesqualer · 28/07/2025 17:38

Thanks for keeping us up to speed with TTs today @MarieDeGournay as Bez thought work was more important 🤨 who does that !! 🤣

Arran2024 · 28/07/2025 17:40

People saying that the racism allegations are going to devastate SP's credibility and reputation in the court of public opinion need to remember that many of the headlines, particularly in the BBC coverage, have already painted her as rude, hostile, transphobic, right wing, Trump supporting, rule breaking. For the average reader this is yet another negative attached to her name - but none of it addresses the issue, which is the right to a same sex changing space.

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 17:40

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:28

I also joke about my own dark shit, but I don't think it's the same as joking about others' horrific experiences. I don't know why it's funny to joke about mass human death after a natural disaster. I'm not trying to scold, I mean that genuinely.

Oh i fully agree i dont understand how people joke about some stuff but im not particularly offended by a lot either like I said i dont think this should of been brought into the court room cos every person has a different take on it, would they be complaining about her being racist if she wasnt in this tribunal? Thats where the issue is for me.

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 17:40

RabbitFurCoat · 28/07/2025 17:32

I was thinking of Brand too but I can't remember anything he said, weirdly, at all. Only that he tried to rebrand (oh god here come the puns)

Well there was that phone call with Jonathon Ross, his drug fueled antics and general behaviour.
Then he turned into a yoga guru and then insufferable American political conspiracy theorist.

I liked his in-between bit when he did 'the trews' taking the piss out of fox News, tabloids and such like.

Oh and then he ditched Kundalini and became a born again Christian (To attract the American bible bashers it seems).

It was hard to keep up.

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