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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 12:33

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

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13
BamsWereAtIt · 28/07/2025 14:35

VaddaABeetch · 28/07/2025 14:31

I wonder was this the whole part of people speaking against Sandy?

I work in a mainly female environment,theres lots of gossip and one man (woman) up man ship. I don’t do that. The days in the office I don’t always go for lunch. I have heard back 3rd hand that I’m a snob or think I’m better. I don’t, I just want to do my job & go home

i wonder if Sandy was similar?

Calling you a snob because you don't go for lunch is such a stretch 😂

I'm the same. No interest in gossip and it makes me uncomfortable to hear it. Funny thing is, my colleagues tell me their deepest darkest secrets because they know I'll not spread it around! If I was listening and remembering any of it I'd know all the juice on everyone.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 14:35

TheKeatingFive · 28/07/2025 14:32

But I don't think it holds any water.

Some third hand tittle tattle compared to years of unblemished service?

I’m thinking on the basis of jokes that she appears to have written down and of which there is documentary evidence. If she didn’t write anything down, or what is written down isn’t reasonably attributable to her, then that’s different. But once there’s evidence in writing, it’s not tittle-tattle any more.

When was this evidence placed in the bundle?

Shortshriftandlethal · 28/07/2025 14:36

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 28/07/2025 14:31

Really is sad times if SP has been sharing racist jokes, but even sadder times that her colleagues and workplace have not actually investigated these.

If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

But you must feel relieved that they are also calling time on her 'transphobia'?

Do people really investigate and report every single thing a person in their work or social group says when unguarded? Personally, I wouldn't hang out with people if I found them to be persistently offensive.

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2025 14:36

Peggie might well be a racist. I'm not going to say I believe or disbelieve it.

What's striking is that despite whats being said in court no one thought it was their responsibility to report it. That means they either saw it as not relevant to the working environment or took the attitude that it wasn't important and they didn't think their multi racial colleagues needed protecting from Sandie Peggie.

BEHOLD A WHITE MALE APPEARS who says he is a woman and suddenly they are all tripping over themselves to say how much he needs protecting from the racist who obviously must be transphobic.

So racism only becomes something thats relevant in the process of defending a white male...

Interesting.

Some might say this in itself is a form of racism, where racism only becomes important when its presence benefits a white male's position. There's no consideration to the 'safety' of non-white staff around Peggie is there?

I wonder how many people can see this.

Besides which, even racist women still have a legal right to single sex protection.

I'm guessing this gossip has been doing the rounds for a while. Do we think that the non-white staff were completely unaware of this? If they were unaware, what does that say about staff relations within NHS Fife? And if they were aware, what does this say about staff relation within NHS Fife?

Dr Upton is clearly far from being the most vulnerable at NHS Fife. I think we are seeing quite clearly which groups are most marginalised.

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 14:36

What did u make of this by SP?
LN I just need a moment to think. I think she's trying to find a quicker way around this , going forward
JR Can u describe any more
J Can u put yr mic down?
JR what do u mean?
LN Only way we can do this is to say we werent told about this. She's trying to find someone to blame as we have the protocols. She possibly shld have looked at the protocols when she 1st realised she had an issue w DU
JR GH says about mtg DU [reads omg I had the same shit..on and on about pronouns. who did the it refer to?
LN To DU

I'm not following this v well - suggesting that SP went off piste trying to get at DrU when the normal channels didn't work for her??

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 14:36

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/07/2025 14:33

‘Really pissed off with Peggie’ Why? Did you want her to be a perfect example of a human being with a pure heart in all matters? You don’t even know if this is true, yet you’re pissed off with her?

This tribunal is to decide whether SP has been denied her fundamental and legal rights to SSS, it isn’t a purity test, it doesn’t matter what her views are on anything else as that is all irrelevant. People we don’t like, don’t approve of or even people we loathe are still entitled to the same rights as everyone else. The judgement here is about rights not personality.

I kinda am worried that her making edgy jokes is a damning opinion on her personality..

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 14:36

Naomi is objecting at JRs questions

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/07/2025 14:36

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 14:35

I’m thinking on the basis of jokes that she appears to have written down and of which there is documentary evidence. If she didn’t write anything down, or what is written down isn’t reasonably attributable to her, then that’s different. But once there’s evidence in writing, it’s not tittle-tattle any more.

When was this evidence placed in the bundle?

Edited

It doesn’t matter what she said, it’s irrelevant to this tribunal. This tribunal is to decide whether SP was denied her right to SSS, that is all.

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/07/2025 14:37

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 28/07/2025 14:31

Really is sad times if SP has been sharing racist jokes, but even sadder times that her colleagues and workplace have not actually investigated these.

If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Yes, this absolutely needed reporting and investigating, it's despicable.

Appalling that it took SP upsetting a straight, white man for anyone to care.

Harassedevictee · 28/07/2025 14:37

This case is interesting as it raises a question about the line between work and personal lives.

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 28/07/2025 14:37

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/07/2025 14:33

‘Really pissed off with Peggie’ Why? Did you want her to be a perfect example of a human being with a pure heart in all matters? You don’t even know if this is true, yet you’re pissed off with her?

This tribunal is to decide whether SP has been denied her fundamental and legal rights to SSS, it isn’t a purity test, it doesn’t matter what her views are on anything else as that is all irrelevant. People we don’t like, don’t approve of or even people we loathe are still entitled to the same rights as everyone else. The judgement here is about rights not personality.

I'm pissed off with her because it seems that she is a racist. Naturally I'll withdraw the pissed-offness if subsequent testimony makes it clear that she isn't a racist.

I've already said that her racism isn't relevant to the case, but naturally I'm afraid it is going to be a big setback in terms of public perception of the issues.

I don't think you have to be too far gone along the purity spiral to be pissed off with racism.

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 14:37

Gina Harding replies "she dont even look like a woman and hairline starting" She's referring as it and making fun of the drs appearance
JR It appears official from Feb 2024 - SP v DU. WHat do u make of this?
LN That she's taking legal action against DU
JR Why do u think that?
LN The start of convo says "is that drs name Beth?" And then says him/her when says Yes. "Omg had the same shit and on and on about pronouns" Its quite clear she's talking about DU
JR How normally referred to DU
LN I've heard e'thing incl weird

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 28/07/2025 14:37

Nachoinseachthu · 28/07/2025 14:17

I feel for JKR who has put her seal of approval on SP!

Why?

Not to be rude or anything but ffs! If Sandi Peggie is a racist, that's really fucking horrible - obviously.

If she is a racist, I wouldn't want to be friends with her.

Regardless of whether she is a racist or not, she still deserves her right to single sex spaces.

If some TERFS are racists (I'm certain there are many), it wouldn't matter all women deserve single sex spaces.

If all TERFS were racist (which obviously we aren't), it wouldn't matter because we'd still all deserve single sex spaces.

Our rights are not dependant on our character. I think JKR is more than intelligent enough to know that herself, and so again not to be rude, but who gives a fuck (in this particular scenario) whether Sandi Peggie is racist or not? It's utterly irrelevant.

Also TRAs already think and call us racists and all the other lovely slurs they can think to throw. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together gives a shiny shite what they think or say.

ETA: bold & underlined bit

ickky · 28/07/2025 14:38

So this witness piped up when sandie asked for help but said nothing when they were all joking about DU in the previous chat.

TheKeatingFive · 28/07/2025 14:39

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 14:35

I’m thinking on the basis of jokes that she appears to have written down and of which there is documentary evidence. If she didn’t write anything down, or what is written down isn’t reasonably attributable to her, then that’s different. But once there’s evidence in writing, it’s not tittle-tattle any more.

When was this evidence placed in the bundle?

Edited

Seems a bit of a witch hunt for a joke.

I expect everyone has made a joke at some point in their lives that could be considered a bit off colour.

This would not normally be seen as evidence a person cannot do their job. Especially when they have been doing their job to a high standard for 30 years.

Chariothorses · 28/07/2025 14:39

From the herald
2:35pm
The other colleague, known as Gina, said Dr Upton did not look like a woman.
Ms Peggie joined in the conversation about the medic's appearance, saying "you forgot the shadow and pathetic voice".
In February 2024, Ms Peggie said: "It appears official Sandie Peggie vs Dr Upton".
2:34pm
We're hearing about a message in the Benidorm group chat from January 2024, where Ms Peggie said she could not find NHS Fife's protocols around transgender individuals.
Ms Nicoll said she believed Ms Nicoll was attempting to find a way to defend her case.
We then hear another message where another colleague refers to Dr Upton is referred to "it" in the group chat, adding the medic was "on and on about pronouns".
Ms Peggie had asked that colleague where they had worked with "him", before correcting it to "her".

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 14:39

LN Yes
JR Why hasnt she mentioned R1 too?
[NC challenges]
JR There's a level of vindictiveness against Du in this case
J Says isnt eveidence
JR I'll leave it . [reads re I mentioned to lawyer re prev issue w DU] What did u find difficult about the convo
LN I found it diff they were talking about the dr. It cld reflect that she cld be being nasty about the dr. I wasnt partic surprised SP was suspended. I just think u shld show respect to e'one what ever yr views are. I felt she was being disrespectful

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 14:40

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 28/07/2025 14:36

It doesn’t matter what she said, it’s irrelevant to this tribunal. This tribunal is to decide whether SP was denied her right to SSS, that is all.

I’m not worried about the tribunal; I’m worried she’ll lose her job and career.

And if her employer legitimately terminates her employment for misconduct that occurred prior to the initiation of proceedings her compensation is zero. I believe there’s precedent for that.

murasaki · 28/07/2025 14:40

I'm struggling to see where NC can go with this other than to say it's not relevant to the CR issue.

Justnot · 28/07/2025 14:41

Well that’s all burst my bubble slightly (even agreeing it makes no difference to her right SSS)

Harassedevictee · 28/07/2025 14:41

Technical question - Should SP have disclosed these conversations to Fife/DrU?

Angrymum22 · 28/07/2025 14:41

If you are writing racists jokes on an established What’s app group you are likely to be confident that your audience will enjoy them. A full transcript of the groups convos will probably reveal that most, if not all, have contributed over the years. It’s easy to judge with a curated snapshot. I think these two nurses need to be very careful. No doubt NC has full access to this groups convos.
I wonder how much deleting has been going on over the weekend.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 28/07/2025 14:41

I wonder why LN didn't report Sandie's behaviour towards Upton in September 2023 then? If Sandie was an outlier and there was a culture of trans positivity that shouldn't have been difficult?

Firealarms · 28/07/2025 14:41

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 14:40

I’m not worried about the tribunal; I’m worried she’ll lose her job and career.

And if her employer legitimately terminates her employment for misconduct that occurred prior to the initiation of proceedings her compensation is zero. I believe there’s precedent for that.

But the NHS stated they cleared her of gross misconduct.

They haven’t said they have opened a new investigation into new allegations. If they did, it would have strengthened their position imo

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 14:42

JR Did u attend the lunch in Sept 23
LN Yes. Before staying in Trump hotel - her 50th BD.
JR Was DU discussed?
LN Yes, pretty much instantly. She talked about the dr working there for 3-4 wks, describing as a weirdo. S'one said why cant u live and let live.

Making sure she gets the Trump ref in, eh?

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