NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

Why?? and what do you mean by seal of approval?

this is about SP right to a single sex changing room and anything else is just piss and wind. She might be an awful woman, she's still entitled to a single sex changing room

As a wee girl in Fife I would call my normal girls pants ‘pants’ or ‘underpants’ - to me knickers was a silly word for frilly things older ladies might wear. This part isn’t odd.

My Glaswegian aunty called my male cousin’s underpants his knickers.

Or unless they all have similar views?

If they all believed she was a racist why on earth did they go on holiday with her ? That's not normal

I know plenty of people who would proudly identify themselves as working class who make all sorts of 'risky' jokes like that. There is no pretence and no airs and graces of pretending to be offended.

yep and thats the point to make her deeply un likeable but the facts remain the same and you cant choose who makes the claim just that she is not wrong about this!

I've dipped in and out, but is the last witness really saying she was in a WhatsApp group and going on holiday with a massive racist since 2017, and only just thought to mention it now?

But it was a private chat. Not public. Surely it's different to making public posts on FB or X

The homophobic comments are ridiculous. If a child tells you they're gay I imagine it would take a bit of time to process that reality is a bit different than you thought it was, your child’s been struggling with things without you knowing which is bound to hurt, potentially a future without grandchildren. It doesn’t mean she’s homophobic it just means life is different for her child than she thought and that can take time to wrap your head around.

Nothing edifying about this at all. The whole environment sounds like vile and completely unprofessional - bitching and gossiping like there's no tomorrow, and with no-one in a senior position acting as a role model it would seem.

None of these women who purport to be outraged felt any sense of responsibility to their colleagues from ethnic minority groups by reporting the comments, it seems. Shameful.

The fact that SP felt it was OK to say these things on a group chat strongly suggests that these were views that were shared - and certainly they seemed happy enough to go on holiday with her.

Why? JKR has said that she admires SP for standing up for her rights to SSS. Unlike some, JKR can distinguish facts from rhetoric. She doesn’t engage in a purity test that ensures that only people who engage in ‘right think’ are allowed any rights.

You seem to be uninformed about the basis of this tribunal, it isn’t there to decide whether SP is whatever you think is a good person, it’s there to decide if she has been denied her legal rights. Her views on any subject are irrelevant.

There’s no such thing as a perfect victim and people should always think twice about blindly supporting a side in the midst of a legal matter - at least wait until all evidence is heard…

having said that, the judge has already given a hint as to his view on today’s evidence. According to TT he said: “the evidence of LN may be tangential to the main issues.” If he still feels that way, her evidence isn’t going to impact the tribunal much.

This would be way Sandie's daughter said today was going to be horrible. NC must be prepared as calling new witnesses.

I've not seen what the jokes are and don't really want to other than the terms are offensive and would have hoped as a nurse she would know that and not use them.

It's true, yes at least over a certain age. That said, my Pakistani born granddad exchanged/exchanges a lot of jokes that are pretty racist on both sides and wouldn't be acceptable nowadays 🤷‍♀️

Its disappointing that this wasn't challenged and resolved at an earlier stage with some appropriate training.

Fortunately there are plenty of people who identify themselves as working class who know what's offensive and therefore avoid saying it.
Like they would want people to avoid saying classist things.
It's just about mutual respect, regardless of race creed colour or class, isn't it?

My mum struggled with my sister being gay shes not homophobic she just had to get used to the idea and i saw that as totally fair considering that it tool my sister time to get used to the idea i dont see this as an issue of homophobia just human nature, when something is not how you thought it was gonna be you need time to process things.

They are all party to that sort of culture........but some are now pretending to be offended by it. SP comes across as being quite outspoken and not particularly retiring, but then so do these two witches.

They will say that 1. despite the chat being private, it displays an attitude that gives rise to the regulator’s reasonable suspicion that SP cannot be trusted to care for all her patients equally regardless of race or ethnicity and 2. In any case chat is (for quite legitimate reasons) no longer private; members of the public who have read it can reasonably lack confidence in her ability to provide care etc. etc.

There are undoubtedly parents who are homophobic. Just as there are parents who will have no issues whatsoever.

but there will also be a lot of parents who may be concerned for their child and hoping that the child is making the right decision for them, mixed up with, as you said, coming to terms with a different life path than might have been anticipated etc etc, none of which would make a person homophobic.

Working class jokes tend to be more offensive because there are no airs and graces i know lots of people who would makes those jokes who are absolutely not racist but to the world they would be and i dont know what to make of that because anyone who know them knows they arent.

It's already hitting the press:

Gender row nurse ‘wanted to post bacon through mosque letterbox’, tribunal told

(Irish News via MSN)

eta - and the Evening Standard. Same headline.

The point is that this sort of 'banter' is very common when people are not trying to pretend to be anything other than unguarded.

..and yet, 30 years with no complaints, no issues..

Presumably that would also apply to those that failed to report the conversation