NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #45

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

It feels like Pete might make another visit!

JR trotting out the old "gay people in changing rooms". Really?!

This witness has a difficulty with critical thinking, and distinguihing one type of situation with a different type of situation. Everything is simply filed under 'Bigotry'.

Totally unsurprising that the respondents were going to try to paint SP as racist and homophobic anyway ... the TRA narrative that people who don't want to enable pretend sex identities are racist and homophobic too.

In other words, the TRAs' bigotry and prejudice. And hate.

NC U just accept them as they are
Absolutely
NC But a M saying as a W, is a demand to accept as hes not?
No
NC E'one pretends to accept as a W?
LN I accept ppl as they are and show compassion and respect
NC being gay doesnt impact other ppl. A man saying is a W impacts other
JR I dont think that's fairly put
NC When a man says..
J Are u reasking the Q
NC Yes. When a man uses a Ws CR, do u accept it interferes w privacy of W
JR She's saying ppl are making a choice but most ppl are saying theyre being their authentic selves

I suppose this is her moment to shine after all. This is her strongest day in court after however many weeks of the tribunal…and even then it’s tangential evidence! Poor thing

From TT:
In some ways. Previously she'd been reaching out for info. She's made a point about a gay married MP. Why mention gay?
NC It's a gay married MP on her side in this issue. He point re DU not being a W or not in CR. Saying she has an issue w DU being a man

Sandie said that in response to Lindsay unnecessarily bringing up her daughter being gay!

So Lindsay would be happy to share with a trans person. Let's bring in Isla Bryson or Katie Dolatowski then Lindsay. Get your kit off.

Shut the fuck up JR.......

NC reading out some of the messages

My Indian friend uses the P word all the time, I met him when we worked together, he is an HR Director. He's really contemptuous about Pakistani employees if I had to talk to him about them. It just makes me think of the history of the two countries to be honest. This creates a terrible atmosphere for white people because we have to accept this hypocrisy silently.

Everything is simply filed under 'Bigotry'.

They sound a bit like Ian Paisley ranting about Popery. It's all just railing against the Other.

This

LN about Upton ‘no, I’d never met him’ 😳

Hmm. So she's worried about homophobia in relation to her son, amd that's a fair concern. But did it lead to her having her eye out for anything she might perceive to be homophobic to back up her concerns? And did she do that because that would validate her internal homophobia that she is masking as concern?

It's as valid a proposition as is the one that Sandie is transphobic. I.e. based on no evidence.

NC [repeats Q]
LN It dep on the indiv women. I persoanlly wld be happy to have got changed in the CR
NC Do u accept invasion of privacy of a'one who does reject
LN If thats how they feel, its how they feel. But I dont have a problem w it

The 'well I don't mind so it's OK' defence..

I think she brought up her MP being Gay to say that even he doesn't have a problem as it is nothing to do with being Gay.

from herald
3:28pm
Ms Russell KC interjects to say that there is a "false premise" in Ms Cunningham's question in that it implies a trans person "is making a choice and pretending to be something they're not, whereas in fact most trans people would say their coming as trans is them being their authentic self."
Ms Cunningham then asks the witness whether women are asked to "sacrifice" their privacy by letting a trans person use a female changing room.
Ms Nicoll said this is not the view of all women. She is personally happy with it.
3:26pm
Ms Cunningham said that a man saying they are a woman demands other people to make concessions because it means they can "interfere" with a woman's right to privacy.
3:25pm
We're hearing that Ms Nicoll said she believed that Dr Upton had showed "courage" by being a transwoman.
Is this fair given you have never met Dr Upton, asks Ms Cunningham?
Yes, said Ms Nicoll.
Ms Cunningham also said Ms Peggie's stance on a trans person using a women's changing room had nothing to do with being gay.
Ms Nicoll said she was "trying to make the point about bigotry".
Ms Cunningham said she was "lumping unlike things together" by comparing trans use of changing rooms to someone being gay.
She asks whether it is "understandable" that some parents were "upset" about their child being gay.
Ms Nicoll said she was not upset about her son being gay, she had concerns about any hate he may receive.
Ms Cunningham said that the difference is that everyone was asked to accept Dr Upton as a woman.
"I'm just a person that tries to accept people as they are and I show respect and compassion," Ms Nicoll said.

I agree, this latest stuff looks really bad, and is probably bad for any patients who might have been cared for by Sandy now affected by seeing this.

Obviously it is irrelevant but having dealt with people who are unable to think critically about anything they read it sets back some of the public perception of this case.

Yes you would have to be fairly stupid to believe sex-based rights were only applicable to people who thought certain things but there are lots of fairly stupid people about, employing people, setting policies, investigating people etc etc... as we have seen.

This all seems a bit of a red herring. This tribunal is not trying to establish whether Sandie Peggie is a nice person or not. It wouldn't surprise me at all too hear that she isn't a lovely person (she is a Trump supporter, after all).

The tribunal (unless I'm much mistaken) is about whether she is allowed, as a woman, to object to having to share a changing room with a transwoman (a biological man) without being subject to disciplinary measures and suspension, and, if she is allowed to object, how she is allowed to express that objection.

Throwing mud at her about other alleged opinions of hers (no matter how unpleasant they may be), shouldn't affect the basis of this case. If they wanted to get rid of her for being a racist, then they should have accused her of that in the first place. It seems weird to me that her gender critical views were seen as more heinous than her apparently open racism

LN ‘but I don’t have a problem with it’ (Upton being in FCR) again, she doesn’t really get what this is about does she? 🤦‍♀️

Well she never met him so how could she say whether she would mind or not.

Until the face-eating leopard party eats your face off.

NC [new doc re chat re justifying a man...rant over] Do u recall the exchange? No. I wasnt participating much in the last 6 months. I can see its a debate about TW in the OLympics
NC About boxer Khelif. [reads re unfairness] U didnt contribute to the debate? LN Not since May24

Oh look, our old pal Imane Khelif makes an appearance. Merhba Imane

Re talk about bingo cards. Compassion. Respect. Authentic selves

J slapping down JR for unnecessary interjection.