NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

I can't bear Harvie. Did enjoy his discomfortiture at his being told by fellow party members that he should step aside to allow for greater female representation in the Scottish Greens and the suggested replacements were Iris Duane and Ellie Gomersall, both of whom are men who identify as women.

It was a glorious 'but, but, but....' moment.

Still have a couple left if anyone else wants one ready for this week!
(I've recognised everyone so far 😁)

Random study I found shared by a detrans bloke:

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.612424/full

Transgender Identity Is Associated With Bullying Involvement Among Finnish Adolescents

sounds about right if we consider Upton.

Logistic regression revealed that non-binary identity was most strongly associated with involvement in bullying, followed by opposite sex identity and cisgender identity. Transgender identities were also more strongly associated with perpetration of bullying than subjection to bullying.

Shared by this guy
https://x.com/simonamayaprice/status/1949482282844069965?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

PSA for anyone else who's recently subscribed to Michael Foran: this interview with Naomi Cunningham:

https://knowingius.org/p/live-with-naomi-cunningham

Highlights include her talking about how she'd love to argue a case that turned on GI beliefs not being WORIADS, and a "be careful what you wish for" discussion of what would happen if the GRA were repealed.
(I don't have share tokens, even after checking as suggested, perhaps because I was cautious enough to sign up only by the month so have only committed £5 so far!)

I have only just got to the end of thread 43, but on the subject of scones, this is by far the best recipe I have ever tasted. It uses yoghurt and double cream in the mixture.

https://ladyandpups.com/2020/12/17/your-final-guide-to-the-perfect-english-tea-scone-all-common-mistakes-corrected/

Also, I'm a fan of jam first, cream after (because I only have the scone to have the cream, naturally), so I give the cream a very light stir to make it spoonable, which means it's non-Newtonian, I believe.

This is interesting in the context of many of the discussions we are having here I think. Awful.

I know this might be difficult to grasp, but there are currently no protected single sex spaces for staff or patients in the NHS. We are working on audit to confirm this but it’s looking like a foregone conclusion at this stage!

It’s not just NHS Fife. There’s no staff single spaces in the whole of Scotland. DU was going to be let into any of the CRs… no one was going to attempt to stop him

I am 2 threads behind, damn working nights,
i have 5 share tokens for michael foran for anyone who needs them

In my experience, they won't support a member beyond the basic initial stage unless there is a racial or gender element, but if there is, it has to be alleged ill treatment of someone in a marginalised minority. OK, that's based on a very small sample, but many of the unions are very much driven by political agendas.

Finally managed to catch up - been on holiday forced to sightsee, socialise and eat in hotels / restaurants ☺️ (no chance of hiding my iPad under the table!). I’ve been two or even three days behind at various points, almost in despair that I’d never catch up! So thanks to everyone for their reports, retweets and discussion. I’ve had a much quieter day today and really enjoyed the weekend chat about reading (yes to Pratchett, Sayers, Fforde, Heyer, Jodi Taylor, Christie etc. alongside the Tey books I’ve quite enjoyed the Nicola Upson ones based around Tey’s character working to solve mysteries etc.)

Also about bites I was stung by a wasp on holiday (I’d forgotten how painful!); but was bitten by an adder many years ago. That was excruciating!

My question (finally get to the relevance) someone suggested many threads ago that there is a biological basis to trans identified people so how can detransitioners be accounted for?

As someone who had no interest in children until my biological clock kicked in hard, I weep for the young women who are cutting themselves off from their potential.

Boiledbeetle · Today 11:52

Rings ** Door bell repeatedly.
I'm sure she's in I thought I saw a curtain twitch.

(Yawns, stretches, wipes sleep from eyes...)

BB! You made good time! It's 6.45 a.m. here in the Antipodes, and I haven't even made up your bed...errmm..beds.
Just give me a moment to put the tea things together...was it Gumboot, EarlGrey, Green or herbal?

Yay! Lionesses!

Well, last Sunday's smugness at being caught up evaporated in a flurry of threads by Monday.
Finally caught up again.
Firstly, my heartfelt thanks to @nauticant for the admirable thread wrangling, and to the many generous, learned and downright hilarious pp's who have made the whole issue digestible, relatable, and terrifying in almost equal measure. Sandie Peggie has my utmost sympathy and respect.
And to all those who have shared jams (my most recent effort was calamondin - but it was an accidental jam event) and other recipes, thank you.
I am also Nanny <name> in reference and deference to the great and mischievous Gytha Ogg.
I absolutely cannot crochet or knit :(
Busy tomorrow morning, so will hopefully have caught up again by next weekend.

I'm not sure what that means. I clearly have a lot of reading to do. She just lives on the windowsill and I only water her with rainwater. I just bought some special soil but that's as far as I've got.
I'm gobsmacked she's still alive and she's always sporting new stems and traps. Don't think she catches any flies though 😀

I had one yonks ago and fed it snippets of raw meat in lieu of flies. Check that though!

@Bowednotbroken:

My question (finally get to the relevance) someone suggested many threads ago that there is a biological basis to trans identified people so how can detransitioners be accounted for?

I’ve done a fair amount of reading, and it’s my understanding that there is no known biological basis for either gender dysphoria or trans identities. TRAs both want there to be some biological basis, because then they could say “See! We are valid!” and don’t want there to be a biological basis, because that would serve as a barrier to self id.

The closest anyone seems to have come to any sort of biological…anything, is that brain scans of people with (diagnosed, not self-diagnosed) gender dysphoria show similarities with people with eating disorders. The hypothesis is that both groups have a disorder relating to mental self-image.

Oh thankyou. I will check ✅

Oh scones. The queens chef’s recipe is the best I’ve found. Soaking the sultanas is a game changer.

Gumboot please.

Hope you don't mind that I brought some of my staff with me!

True, but HR clearly knew that no-one was going to listen to them no matter what they said.

Wow. I just make lemonade scones - full fat lemonade, cream and flour.

Do the board do anything well at all? Obfuscation, harassment perhaps?

I had a Japanese friend at one point. She said that coming to the UK she'd never really had much sugar before as traditional Japanese food - which was all she'd had - didn't really have much in the way of sweets/puddings/cakes etc. She binged a bit until she became accustomed.

I'd like to think the PP who posted the courgette pickle recipe a couple of days ago. Scoffing them out of the jar delicious!