NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

They are making themselves look desperate. I think JR is very worried about these new witnesses.

oh thats interesting i didnt know that i thought that it wasnt allowed cos then anyone could make anything up but that tracks with it being easier to win a civil case.

Even if Sandie was the original Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan, she would still be entitled to SSS

As is every other woman who works at the hospital. Their rights can't be ignored or removed because of other women's behaviour.

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45

Given as I understand it, witnesses are not supposed to follow the trial (is that right), but late witnesses who weren't rostered on might well have done as they didn't know they'd be called, isn't that problematic re what they might say given the evidence so far?

Oh my! Im still catching up on this one!! Thank you ❤️

a smear campaign, and evidence of rumourmongering doesn’t sound like the greatest defence against SPs claims of harassment and victimisation. Well, we shall see what NC makes of it.

@Waitwhat23 Yes that's what I said, I'm also surprised as well there's seemingly no training on diversity in the workplace and what is and isn't appropriate to say.

This is at least the first time anyone has come forward saying they've heard Sandie say anything bigoted. It's massive. Unsurprisingly they holding their best card til last.

I'm not sure I can see Sandie wanting to put anything through a mosque letterbox. She seems calm and stable in her interactions. I suppose one option is she was misheard and quoting someone saying that in a restaurant.

Racism, unlike biological sex, isn't exactly binary. So yes there are some people who hold some dodgy views but still get on great with those from ethnic minorites.

WRT the changing room I don’t think we have seen the photo of the layout but if according to FW Sandie was near the toilets does this mean she wasn’t blocking DrUs access to leave the cr?

The words “freak” and “weird” are not exclusive descriptors of trans identifying men.
DUs gender was not disclosed to staff, they were left to make that observation ( demonstrated by the consultant who interviewed DU). What is the policy NHSFife re employing transgender individuals? Is it discriminatory to introduce them as trans?
So if a 6’ junior Dr appears in the dept, dressed in neutral/non gender specific scrubs, unless you are told they are trans, initially you may see their appearance as freakish until you realise that they are not a very tall woman built like a rugby forward.
“Weird”may just describe behaviour not gender. I’m quite sure that my staff would describe me as weird at times. Weird describes behaviour that deviates from the general normal social behaviour. A young man who has only recently decided he is female may really struggle to present as an average woman socially, so that would appear weird.

This is why integrating trans individuals is a conundrum in a working environment where uniforms don’t gender people, hence the emphasis on pronouns on badges/lanyards. But unless you are stood a couple of feet in front of that person so you can read their pronouns, it may be some time before you are aware.

HR failed all the members of staff, lack of policy allowed misgendering because announcing it may have been considered offensive suggesting that gender wasn’t obvious. In an office environment where gender specific clothing makes it easier it would be less of a problem.

Should employers circulate a memo to all staff in the hospital informing them that a transgender employee is joining the staff or would this be considered discrimination since it would not be done for other staff and in addition not for other characteristics ie race, religion etc.

So again if your interaction with a new member of staff is not frequent or at close quarters your initial reaction may be to say they are a bit weird or freakish until someone explains why.

It's been quite the morning, hasn't it.

im thinking Fife may have thought this was going to go better than it has and FW was supposed to be like a death blow but it just comes across as bitchy to me 🤷‍♀️

IMO one of the worst, if not the worst, basic tenets of this ideology is the total undermining and removal of safeguarding and safeguarding principles from all institutions. I started my nursing training at a time when "non-accidental injury" was first recognised and given a name and compulsory safeguarding training was being introduced on a national basis. It is horrifying to see how things have unfolded in the last 10 years.

@Harassedevictee We already know from Upton's own evidence he was the one nearest the door, not her, as far as I recall. She was never blocking him in, it was all rumour and bitch.

The perfect ratio, i’m sure.

And I don't understand why. Remember during COVID they said there was a shortage of 45k ? nurses and they were going to invest in training loads up? It takes 3 years so they'd have recently graduated and be ready to fill this shortfall.
Why are there suddenly no jobs now. Where have all these vacancies disappeared to?.

@BezMillsthe thing is though despite the language - the people I know who grew up and stayed there don’t behave in a racist way - they don’t treat people from different backgrounds differently and there is absolutely no suggestion Sandie ever behaved poorly or said anything racist to patients or colleagues at work. That would have been reported. Anything else isn’t relevant. Actually even if she were overtly racist in her private life that wouldn’t actually be relevant although I seriously doubt that is the case. Kirkcaldy’s demographic has changed significantly from the 80s. It’s just some language and attitudes from growing up do seem to be quite ‘baked in’ in those who never left to experience life somewhere a bit less… Fife 😂 and I can imagine the odd ill advised comment popping up in an informal setting like lunch with colleagues if it were outside the hospital and perhaps booze was involved.

I have always tried to go for the pragmatic/balanced view and this is no different…

Given what SP’s husband publicly shared on Facebook and was questioned about at the tribunal, it is feasible that SP herself could share similar views. Ultimately her husband wouldn’t have shared those things if he didn’t agree, nor would he have done so if he didn’t think his social media friends would agree.

I am also mindful that the area SP lives/works in, tends to share more similarities with a small town vs a bustling multicultural city. Therefore I don’t think these views are out of the ordinary for a resident there.

But having said that, I don’t think this evidence supports NHS Fife - if they thought SP said these things, they should have investigated her over these things at the time. Plus the witness can’t even recall who said what or who was present etc. Therefore it is not strong evidence for the respondent and SP could rebut this testimony well enough for the tribunal to give it little weight.

Exactly. Seems to me they’re making unsubstantiated rubbish up. But comments like these stick, and they know it. I would genuinely struggle if I was SP to work as a nurse again and not just at Fife.

How could you go anywhere else in such a multi cultural workplace and know some of your colleagues might believe it and think you’re racist.

@BeLemonNow

This is at least the first time anyone has come forward saying they've heard Sandie say anything bigoted. It's massive. Unsurprisingly they holding their best card til last.

It isn't the first time, quite a few of their witnesses have said that they heard 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay. None of them heard it directly. Except this one and she can't remember, just described it as derogatory.

I was the first to say we'd be on thread #45 come Monday. I want my prize please 🏆

JR: page from soc media about mosques, comment about that issue
FW - lunch, she made reference to mosque being built in Kirkcaldy, she had a mind to post <missed> through the letter box, I remembered because I found it offensive
JR - how did others respond
FW - I can't
remember, she made derogatory remarks about Beth, my colleague LN responded.
JR - anything beyond, freak etc.
FW - no, nothing else.

Direct witness I'm afraid.

The legal bods are starting to come back in and get settled, but still quite a few empty chairs, and no panel yet

Loads of racists must work at these institutions, I don’t think it would be a massive deal. But SP’s reputation would be ruined by virtue of bringing this tribunal claim - I can’t imagine many employers of nurses would want to hire any tribunal claimant due to risk, especially as the NHS is the biggest employer of nurses and they are the respondent in this case.

I will hand the keys to the threads and the job of running them to you when things close this week.