NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

Me neither. You might say it in private to colleagues who you definitely know share the same views. Not in general company though.
I'm willing to bet there are Muslims working in her hospital, if not in her very department.
Also pretty sure Sandie will know Fiona (and her views) if she's been there for 41 years.
Seems like she's just repeating gossip. Unless there is anything posted or in writing, it's all just another case of she said, she said surely.

How on earth is this relevant? Murderers are entitled to single sex spaces and are entitled to due process to complain if they’re not getting them.

it may be Sandie is a raging racist/trsnsphobe/homophobe etc etc etc but it’s fuck all relevance to the claims she’s bringing. In other words, it’s not relevant to the case why she wants a ss CR and it’s not relevant that nhsfb failed (or not) to follow due process??

At the start of the tribunal, on the basis of the first things I read, I also felt quite sure my own views would not align with Sandie's. But I thought the tribunal would turn on Sandie's rights as a woman, that aren't diminished by her views on other matters.

I can see this may be relevant to issues around credibility. But it also feels very much like a last effort to smear Sandie when the case seems to have been substantially lost.

I'm not sure what to think of a witness coming forward at such a very late stage with only this to say. I think FW is important because she has confirmed that Sandie was further from the door than Upton, and that was disputed. The rest looks bad for Sandie but is weakly supported.

Are the Rs really trying to say that if the complaint about a bloke in a female changing room had come from a long term member of staff who hadn't made any comments of this nature (if indeed SP did) then they would have suddenly remembered they were in breach of the EA and directed Upton to change elsewhere?

Would they hell.

Indeed. I would have reported the bacon comment (if it was said). Why didn't any of those present do so?

Am I misremembering, or did someone write on one of these threads that if a claimant was shown to be racist etc, it would reduce the amount of damages the C would receive?

If that's true, why would it be so?

Apologies if I'm wrong, just wondering why this is being aired in court.

How on earth is this relevant?

That's going to be the squirmiest of questions, isn't it.

She's going to be asked exactly what kind of women she thinks doesn't deserve privacy, dignity and safety.

Mud slinging, especially on matter unrelated just appears at this point to be attempts at character assassination because NHS Fife have nothing else. They know they are losing badly and this is all they have.

And yes, why haven't nursing colleagues reported these awful comments they claim to have heard about.

Absolutely. I think NC has managed to prove quite a few times to the panel that not only did they act with haste and inappropriately perform their ix with Sandie, but they've also negated to investigate other claims too.

It was especially fun to watch NC cross ex IB and ask why she only has she/her in her email sign off, and aren't the rest of the protected characteristics also deserving of some airtime, or is it just that she only really gives a stuff about gender ideology.

It's been suggested for years that the NHS likes to recruit overseas nurses as they've had their training paid by someone else. Saves the NHS ££££££

Ditto.
I've known 2 Fiona's in my time and I would rather forget them both.
(no disrespect to any nice Fiona's on this thread btw) 😉

From the Daily Mail four weeks ago:

British-trained doctors 'will get priority over foreigners' for NHS jobs under Labour plans

British-trained doctors will be prioritised for NHS jobs over foreigners under Labour plans, it has emerged.

Health Secretary Wes Streeting wants to hand an advantage to applicants in whose training the UK taxpayer has already invested.

A leaked extract of the 10 Year Health Plan - which will outline Labour's overhaul of the NHS - promises a 'fairer deal for our doctors in training'.

According to the Sunday Times, this will include a pledge to reverse changes made in 2020 that opened up NHS speciality training jobs to overseas doctors.

The Health Secretary will hope the move will win favour among junior doctors, who recently threatened more strikes in protest at the Government's latest pay offer.

The British Medical Association, which represents junior doctors, has demanded that ministers prioritise access to speciality training places for UK medical graduates.

Mr Streeting himself has previously bemoaned a 'crazy position' that sees UK medical school graduates compete on an equal basis with overseas applicants for the same jobs.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14747663/British-trained-doctors-priority-foreigners-NHS-jobs-Labour-plans.html

I did it for A level! I still remember bits, 'bread and circuses' and ' facts, facts, facts'!😂

Their mud slinging witness recalling Upton wearing a (completely unnecessary) bra in the ladies changing room alone is a key piece of evidence for the other side really. No one will say it, of course, but it tells us exactly what he is all about. It's a fetish. Just so bloody obvious

Of course he was wearing a bloody bra. 🤨

Oh so vague, yet so definite about what someone else (who maybe heard it from someone else) said. Don’t have a clue what he was wearing, but definitely a bra and modest with his nethers. Hmm!!

Irrespective, this case is about women being given no choice in a supposedly female only changing room but to have men come in on top of them as they change. And of course men being able to get their kit off too. Enabled by NHSF on unconsenting women.

IIRC that was more to do with defamation cases or claims that relate to reputational harm. If a clamaint is shown to already have a bad reputation, they can't argue they have suffered reputational damage.

Good afternoon, just read through whats been said this morning and im so confused!! Are the new witnesses for or against Sandie?

Its odd to remember where everyone was standing, but not what they were wearing.

Im guessing shes there to suggest that Upton is never naked, therefore his presence is not an issue. Also, to say shes heard tell sandie is defo racist.

That's my understanding, they are often at a higher band/experience . I guess there are other advantages like on a skilled visa so less likely to leave for other job as needs to be sponsored.

Government gets more money from skilled work visa (NHS surcharges) and they have no access to public funds.

Even though my friend is a Nigerian nurse on a skilled work visa I can't support us continuing to offer skilled work visas where there are unemployed UK nurses.

It's also morally questionable us poaching trained nurses from far poorer countries.

I'm sure NC won't waste too much time in discrediting and wiping the floor with FW's waffle.

I think a significant factor affecting doctor recruitment is the increase of Physician Associate posts that are people with a Masters degree recruited to positions that would usually be filled by qualified doctors.

I would say against.

It all smacks of desperation from the respondents

Lurker here - thanks for the threads. I am from Fife and absolutely would use “derogatory remarks” in this context if I was recounting a story like this .

my gut feeling as an avid follower of this case, who is firmly on Sandie’s side, is that there may well be some substance to the evidence today. These witnesses are not showing themselves in a great light, but I can’t think they would all be perjuring themselves.

I grew up close to the hospital and it was a very monocultural, working class area back then (70-80s). Casual racism was very much the norm during my childhood and I never questioned or realised it until I moved away to uni. Eg 2 local corner shops (on a hill) were known as the ‘top p ki’ and the ‘bottom p ki’ when being told what one to go to for messages (groceries). I’ve heard not so pleasant comments about the mosque that was built close by in more recent years too (not far at all from the hospital and a very striking change to the town that would have been topic for conversation). I still cringe at certain comments from family members who I know are not inherently racist but still use language that really isn’t acceptable.

however I may be wrong, it’s totally mud slinging and most importantly it’s not relevant to the actual case.