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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 21:31

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

OP posts:
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51
MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 11:21

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 11:20

NC - C is the only one who came forward. JR says C has known about LN since early July. We did not see material from group chat until last week. And other participant to that 2 way chat, is the only other person who can give evidence about that is our other witness. It would be

strikingly unjust to allow the R to call one of parties to that chat and not allow C to call the other. On JRs general point about productions before she's seen them, in the 26 pages we have provided we have already redacted them, only 2 indvs are identified, so no problem

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 11:22

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 11:13

Sounds like JR knows these witnesses will lose her the case and is desperate for it not to be included.

Shes lost anyway. Who's she more scared of Pete or the new witnesses?

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 11:22

Tribunal printer is broken

ickky · 28/07/2025 11:22

Tribunal has printer problems and need to get them done externally.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/07/2025 11:22

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 28/07/2025 11:21

It also suggests that as long as a man isn't a sex offender it's OK for him to be in the F CR. It isn't. I don't want to change in front of men however 'safe' they are. Its a F CR not a mixed CR.

Isn’t a known sex offender, you mean!

ickky · 28/07/2025 11:23

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 11:22

Shes lost anyway. Who's she more scared of Pete or the new witnesses?

She has a plane to catch on Thursday.

Tiddler1976 · 28/07/2025 11:23

CrocsNotDocs · 28/07/2025 10:54

Out of Jane Russell’s arse.

Worst thing they ever day was taking away the laughing emoji.............

I might get this put on a t-shirt!

anyolddinosaur · 28/07/2025 11:23

For whoever wanted to find a post on their hobby - google search is notoriously better at finding things on MN than advanced search.

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 11:23

ickky · 28/07/2025 11:22

Tribunal has printer problems and need to get them done externally.

Printer always knows when it's time sensitive stuff and not pictures of cats!

Printers hate us

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 11:23

Can we hope that if NC gets Sandie back, JR will get Upton back?

Purely for my own viewing pleasure of course. I never got to see him the first time.

BeLemonNow · 28/07/2025 11:23

Oh ff sake with printer, maybe someone in Dundee can pop round and lend them one?

I am far too impatient to be a judge/lawyer I've realised.

Longlivethebling · 28/07/2025 11:23

'NC - JR says that we knew about other objector a long time ago, we knew about many objectors long ago'

Which implies Jr knew too and was still happy to push the narrative that no one else objected so it was just nasty SP who hated trans people

Hoardasurass · 28/07/2025 11:24

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 11:13

Sounds like JR knows these witnesses will lose her the case and is desperate for it not to be included.

I'd say that they gut her case as they prove others complained so it wasn't just big mean racist bigoted sandie and that she's not racist

BridasShieldWall · 28/07/2025 11:24

GreenFriedTomato · 28/07/2025 11:13

Sounds like JR knows these witnesses will lose her the case and is desperate for it not to be included.

I think the R’s have the lost, they could still win but it would be against the evidence. This is damage limitation now. I want these new witnesses to be heard and the tripe that MC spouted about DSDs to be clearly rebutted. I want Fife absolutely buried for what they have done. I would love it for one of the witnesses to be the nurse who KS said was too scared to come forward.

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 11:25

NC -
And there are patient details in one, LN needs to see the unredacted version, but that is simply done.
J - how long until available, given difficulties here.
NC - it will take us some time to get out to a print shop.
J - and on submissions
NC - majority of evidence has been given in last 2 weeks. There is a great deal to be done, compare evidence, find alignment, it is unrealistic to expect C to be ready.
J - in Scotland we do that all the time, including complicated cases, doesn't mean that we need to do in this case. How long do you propose?

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 11:25

NebulousDog · 28/07/2025 11:17

Something for observers to comment on later; does JR sound as if she is panicking?

I suspect that Sandie wasn't expecting a series of employees who don't work with her to confidently state that they have heard she is a racist homophobe.

I hope the Panel see through this.

I'll bet people who DO work with her are feeling a bit shit about the muck thats been thrown about. And want to give her some back up.

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 11:26

That's the 2nd time this morning judge has said 'In Scotland we...' - getting a bit irritated with NC?

ickky · 28/07/2025 11:26

NC said it is highly likely that the losing party will probably appeal once or maybe twice.

anyolddinosaur · 28/07/2025 11:26

When I was taught about safeguarding it was always you must still be suspicious as checks could just mean you havent been caught yet.

BezMills · 28/07/2025 11:27

From TT

JR - I need 15 minutes, but not now
J - before witnesses?
JR - I should see before calling witnesses
NC - should I wait or do you want to hear now
J - now please on these points

Big Sond has completely given up on playing Tribunal Court Bingo, there are much more important matters. Whae's cryin shotgun in the gowf cart being the first ae them.

NC - the difficulties have been in the manner that which Rs have conducted case
JR says that we knew about other objector a long time ago, we knew about many objectors long ago, but the price of objecting was obvious, it is important that the Tribunal hear from this witness. R's treatment of C is the most obvious sign of how any other wits would be treated
C is the only one who came forward.
JR says C has known about LN since early July. We did not see material from group chat until last week. And other participant to that 2 way chat, is the only other person who can give evidence about that is our other witness. It would be strikingly unjust to allow the R to call one of parties to that chat and not allow C to call the other. On JRs general point about productions before she's seen them, in the 26 pages we have provided we have already redacted them, only 2 indvs are identified, so no problem.
And there are patient details in one, LN needs to see the unredacted version, but that is simply done.

J - how long until available, given difficulties here.

NC - it will take us some time to get out to a print shop.

Fifer : runs oot hoose wi desktop laser jet and jumps in the caur, gonna be a hero like Gazza and the KFC.

J - and on submissions

NC - majority of evidence has been given in last 2 weeks. There is a great deal to be done, compare evidence, find alignment, it is unrealistic to expect C to be ready.

J - in Scotland we do that all the time, including complicated cases, doesn't mean that we need to do in this case. How long do you propose?

Big Sond disnae mind, he jist needs tae ken so as tae no lose the comfy seat in the Gowf Kert.

NC - 2 ways; adjourn for written subs then come back in person for questions from Panel and/or brief oral argument. Our pref'd option. Failing that we could proceed to oral submissions but would ask to supplement in writing by end of August. It is not merely a complicated factual case, it is a case of real importance, it is likely that the losing party may appeal at least once, it's the first case since the practical working out of FWS judgment will have to be addressed for single sex spaces. It is being avidly watched by press and general public

It really is

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 28/07/2025 11:27

3000 vs 24 is an example of something that genuinely IS a spectrum, but for practical purposes here it basically manifests as a binary.

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 11:27

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 11:23

Printer always knows when it's time sensitive stuff and not pictures of cats!

Printers hate us

So so true! 😂

CinnamonCinnabar · 28/07/2025 11:27

Is Fife calling a facebook friend who hasn't worked with SP and has never met DU to comment on SP's conduct in a workplace friend doesn't work in? Have I got that right? Seems bonkers. I've never met anyone in this ET but I've been to Fife hospitals and Dundee Medical School, can I comment?

MarieDeGournay · 28/07/2025 11:28

NC - 2 ways; adjourn for written subs then come back in person for questions from Panel and/or brief oral argument. Our pref'd option. Failing that we could proceed to oral submissions but would ask to supplement in writing by end of August. It is not merely a complicate actual case, it is a case of real importance, it is likely that the losing party may appeal at least once, it's the first case since the practical working out of FWS judgment will have to be addressed for single sex spaces. It is being avidly watched by press and general public

You betcha it is😁

cigarsmokingwoman · 28/07/2025 11:28

it is obvious the losing party will indeed appeal, no surprises there, and I'm sure NC is more prepared for doing that than NHS Fife and JR are!

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