NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

NC - one will give direct evidence about material added to bundle at a late stage, another member of the group chat
J - so that's the witnesses, are you seeking further productions
NC - almost entirely further extracts from the group chat, speak to credibility of LN, 24 page

J - are they available now? Ready now.
NC - yes.
J - the simplest thing is to forward to AW, so they can take instructions. What's your view on subs?
NC - in light of these issues, we are in real difficulty, I don't think we can do by Thursday, suggest adjourn

Oh Lovely: Jo Phoenix is there to support Sandie (as is Neale Hanvey).

Currently talking about December if have to reconvene

If they adjourn it will be at least December before they can reconvene.

for written subs, then convene in person for short oral submissions and Panel Qs. Difficulty -
JR not available in August or September, I have cases in October, November we may not be able to reconvene until December. Options, 2 wits today, will you call C first then new wits?

They are going to have to some earlier starts and later finishes I reckon

Oh judge just come to same conclusion

I won't post all the herald blog but will try and post anything that may help make things clearer!

10:22am
We're underway.
For Women Scotland has applied to issue a short written intervention, we heard. Jane Russell KC is making the case for this to be rejected.
Ms Peggie's legal team have also made a request to bring forward two key witnesses. Again, Ms Russell objects, adding it is very late.
Naomi Cunningham, representing Ms Peggie, is arguing NHS Fife legal team have approached this tribunal "shambolically".
She said Ms Russell should have interviewed Fiona Wishart (a witness today) much earlier in this process. Ms Russell, she said, should have anticipated that Ms Peggie would deny she held racist views and therefore would want to bring further evidence and context.
Ms Cunningham will wait to see what today's two witnesses have to say, but she wants to give Ms Peggie the opportunity to be recalled.
Two other witnesses want to give evidence on the culture at NHS Fife and the fear of speaking up.
She said Ms Russell has said that Ms Peggie was the only person to object to a "man using the changing room".
That is not so, she said.

This must be good stuff, considering Sandie looks like already having it in the bag. Maybe can get NHSF on actual criminal conspiracy.

From TT

NC - JR has made much of fact that SP was only woman to object, that is not so,

Fifer : aye mebbe if she hadn't mentioned it in primary examination every fuckin time ey.

J - how long to take, recall, 2 wits
NC - recall will be in JRs hands, perhaps 1/2 hour in chief, 2 other witnesses combined an hour in chief,
J - are they available
NC - yes, one attend by CVP
NC - one will give direct evidence about material added to bundle at a late stage, another member of the group chat
J - so that's the witnesses, are you seeking further productions
NC - almost entirely further extracts from the group chat, speak to credibility of LN, 24 page
J - are they available now? Ready now.
NC - yes.
J - the simplest thing is to forward to AW, so they can take instructions. What's your view on subs?
NC - in light of these issues, we are in real difficulty, I don't think we can do by Thursday, suggest adjourn for written subs, then convene in person for short oral submissions and Panel Qs. Difficulty - JR not available in August or September, I have cases in October, November we may not be able to reconvene until December. Options, 2 wits today, will you call C first then new wits?

Fifer : jeezy peeps, Big Sond richt on the hot seat. He hasnae even had his third cappucino an here he is getting a proper banger pit up his drain pipe.

Now JR wittering about something

J - do you want to take instructions first?
NC - yes, come back after break.
J - we could possibly start early, at 9 am. Tomorrow if we start MC at 9, we will hopefully finish x by 10:30,
NC - I'm afraid there has been a change in my x plan, given that MC say that bio sex is....

oh the suspense - is WHAT??

Re. Pratchett for an 11-year-old, there's the Nome Trilogy, AKA The Bromeliad - three books, Truckers, Diggers and Wings.

They had me guffawing as a grown adult.

From TT

J - do you want to take instructions first?
NC - yes, come back after break.
J - we could possibly start early, at 9 am. Tomorrow if we start MC at 9, we will hopefully finish x by 10:30,
NC - I'm afraid there has been a change in my x plan, given that MC say that bio sex is

Fifer a nebulous dug whistle wis it no?

Yes I am itching to hear more about that

Wtf was going on at Fife? The more NC looks the more shit comes out

Gonna be a long day on Wednesday.

That was about the Benidotm Party chat!

Judge shuffling times around. He clearly doesn't want this to continue again in a few months

That deserves a wtf face 😲

not binary and very complicated, it's time consuming to unpick something like that
JR - I'm concerned MC is only involved in one issue in the case
J - I haven't heard all her evidence
J - say we finish with MC by 12, <missed Tuesday aft plan>
J I have something on Weds at

disappointing, I thought she was going to say 'fun'!😆

From TT -

'(Cont) not binary and very complicated, it's time consuming to unpick something like that'

11 am, start subs at 9 on Wednesday, resume after lunch, then Thursday at 9 am. Normally in Scotland we have submissions immediately after evidence, I would need persuading that we should do anything different.
NC - can we come back to you on that? See if we can find a day

The opening almost makes one feel sympathetic towards Gradgrind in these days when fact and reason seems to have gone out of the window:

“NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them.”

Thank you @AtoC. Here ends the derail. Back to the important business

They are going to come back to this later, but all still discussing it

Also The Carpet People, also a good Terry Pratchett children's book.

I'd go with the Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents or the The Wee Free Men as starters for children personally, they are just so good!