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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 21:31

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
borntobequiet · 28/07/2025 07:49

NoBinturongsHereMate · 27/07/2025 23:16

NI scones are not only multi-flavoured, many vareties are traditionally made as spirals rather than merely round.

The horror. I can’t bear it.

CriticalCondition · 28/07/2025 07:53

NebulousDog · 28/07/2025 07:41

@ThreeWordHarpy thank-you for the website link (to sciencejewelry1824). Are you pleased with the quality? The earrings look suitably quirky for a budding scientist (who will be getting A level results in a fortnight).

It’s the wrong time of year, but cheese and wild garlic scones are divine!

Thinking about today’s witnesses, at what point does an unsubstantiated testimony become slander?

Testimony in court is protected by absolute privilege so a witness is free to give evidence without fear of being sued for defamation. Which is as it should be . The court will determine who is to be believed.

AtoC · 28/07/2025 08:03

That recipe sounds very much like that of a dripping cake (except drips use yeast instead)

anyolddinosaur · 28/07/2025 08:06

GMC is totally captured and Upton is still a fairly junior doctor. There should be a suspension, told to reflect, maybe some supervised practise but I wouldnt even bet on that. The biggest problem for him is that he would normally be applying for specialty training now and that is very competitive. You need a portfolio with more than just a full time job and he hasnt even had that. So he shouldnt be getting a training post anytime soon. Even clinical fellow posts are harder to get and some doctors may not have jobs in medicine in August. It would not be surprising if Upton was one of them,

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2025 08:08

1 I knew Bez Mills was a man. The brave sort who supports the feminists when they are driven off a message board.

2 There are places in county Longford in Ireland where pitcher plants have naturalised in the bogs - I saw them at the Corlea trackway visitor's centre (along with native sundews). https://heritageireland.ie/places-to-visit/corlea-iron-age-roadway/

3 Courgettes going rogue season has arrived in my garden, stuffed marrow for dinner.

4 But I might make cheese scones for lunch.

5 Yes, I'm looking forward to today with some trepidation, but trust in good lawyers cutting through the 'I've never met that person but know they are brave and sensitive and virtuous because . . .' crap.

Corlea Iron Age Roadway and Visitor Centre | Heritage Ireland

Hidden away in the boglands of Longford, not far from Kenagh village, is an inspiring relic of prehistory: a togher – an Iron Age road

https://heritageireland.ie/places-to-visit/corlea-iron-age-roadway/

DrBlackbird · 28/07/2025 08:11

Igneococcus · 27/07/2025 21:57

Sad times indeed :(
dp used to have carnivorous plants, mainly pitcher plants not fly traps, he always snapped off the flowers of the sad little venus fly traps in our local Homebase (also non-existent anymore) saying they'd die if they flower.

Edited

Not having heard this, I’ve blithely and in a rather cavalier fashion let my Venus carry on flowering. She’s done so for weeks and is still flowering. I assumed the flowers were its sneaky way of attracting more flies. She’s still alive even with two stalks flowering.

I went to look at what the experts say. From ‘Venus flytrap world’, they say:

Some Venus flytrap owners have the misconception that Venus flytrap need special care during the flowering process. During the flowering season, there are no additional care instructions. Just continue to care for your plant as you have been doing. The plant might slow down its growth to focus on reproduction, but it should not show signs of struggle.

Edited to add that every time I read ‘sad times’ on these threads, it makes me smile.

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 08:17

pollyglot · 28/07/2025 05:35

It's a dree sort of day here, just the weather for marmalade making: Lime and lemon (left) sweet orange and grapefruit.
Putting the finishing touches to my latest book...to the printers within a fortnight!

Still can't knit or crochet, though...

Edited

I'll have this one on my toast this morning please.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44
prh47bridge · 28/07/2025 08:22

Floradear · 28/07/2025 07:38

But, His registration has been changed. Did he not qualify as Theodore and was registered as such. At some date it was accepted that he had become a woman and documents and his history were changed.
I am unsure of the limits of jurisdiction between NHS, BMA, and GMC operate. But this sex change was accepted without conditions.
So why will these organisations investigate him now?

The NHS employs doctors. Like any employer, it can discipline and sack doctors. However, it is not their regulator. It can refuse to employ a doctor but it cannot prevent a doctor from practising.

The BMA is the trade union and professional body representing doctors and medical students. It is not their regulator. Doctors do not have to be members of the BMA and can continue to practice even if they are expelled from membership.

The GMC is the regulator for doctors. It determines whether a doctor is fit to practice. It can strike a doctor off, preventing them from working as a doctor in the UK.

pollyglot · 28/07/2025 08:23

Boiledbeetle · Today 08:17

pollyglot · Today 05:35
It's a dree sort of day here, just the weather for marmalade making: Lime and lemon (left) sweet orange and grapefruit.
Putting the finishing touches to my latest book...to the printers within a fortnight!
Still can't knit or crochet, though...

I'll have this one on my toast this morning please.

Good choice BB.
How did you sleep?
Oh, and the staff? i have a very nice crab apple jelly of a venerable vintage.

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 08:23

While the GMC might be captured.
There is still the issue of Upton delaying reporting dangerous/ neglectful practice.

The issue of him treating women who've requested single sex care.

And potentially making false allegations.

But I do think he'll have made himself pretty unemployable

Igneococcus · 28/07/2025 08:25

DrBlackbird · 28/07/2025 08:11

Not having heard this, I’ve blithely and in a rather cavalier fashion let my Venus carry on flowering. She’s done so for weeks and is still flowering. I assumed the flowers were its sneaky way of attracting more flies. She’s still alive even with two stalks flowering.

I went to look at what the experts say. From ‘Venus flytrap world’, they say:

Some Venus flytrap owners have the misconception that Venus flytrap need special care during the flowering process. During the flowering season, there are no additional care instructions. Just continue to care for your plant as you have been doing. The plant might slow down its growth to focus on reproduction, but it should not show signs of struggle.

Edited to add that every time I read ‘sad times’ on these threads, it makes me smile.

Edited

It's plants that are already struggling (like the ones in our ex-Homebase) that can get finished off by the effort of flowering. Thriving ones should be fine.

Lougle · 28/07/2025 08:26

anyolddinosaur · 28/07/2025 08:06

GMC is totally captured and Upton is still a fairly junior doctor. There should be a suspension, told to reflect, maybe some supervised practise but I wouldnt even bet on that. The biggest problem for him is that he would normally be applying for specialty training now and that is very competitive. You need a portfolio with more than just a full time job and he hasnt even had that. So he shouldnt be getting a training post anytime soon. Even clinical fellow posts are harder to get and some doctors may not have jobs in medicine in August. It would not be surprising if Upton was one of them,

If he's got any sense, he'll go to Occupational Health, say that he needs to be redeployed because his position is untenable, and therefore be given a new post. I'm not sure if it's different for Doctors than nurses.

ThreeWordHarpy · 28/07/2025 08:43

NebulousDog · 28/07/2025 07:41

@ThreeWordHarpy thank-you for the website link (to sciencejewelry1824). Are you pleased with the quality? The earrings look suitably quirky for a budding scientist (who will be getting A level results in a fortnight).

It’s the wrong time of year, but cheese and wild garlic scones are divine!

Thinking about today’s witnesses, at what point does an unsubstantiated testimony become slander?

I’ll be honest, for the money i thought it would be a bit heavier on the amount of silver and it’s not hallmarked but it looks lovely when I’m wearing it. It was just what I wanted to signal sex realist views without wearing dinosaurs or people and green. Also plausible deniability in that I like to do family history research and I have done dna testing for that, so I can say that’s also what it references.

I’d say the whole website is perfect as a gift for a scientist or geek. I’m tempted by the eppendorf earrings!

IamEarthymama · 28/07/2025 08:44

Long time Mumsnetter here who has followed this Tribunal with bated breath.
I am not often grateful to my ongoing medical woes but at least have been able watch this unbelievable drama unfolding hour by hour.
I am a proud gender critical feminist, created in the second wave. I can’t believe that this madness is happening and often feel I must be living in a different reality to people who seem to actually believe that it is possible to change sex.
In the late 1980s I had a friend who was in a relationship with a man who decided he was a woman. He was a traumatised and deeply unhappy man and I hoped that this ‘transition’ would help him. He spent a holiday with me and my teenage children. I have had to draw a veil over that memory and my children still talk of it…😳. I do know that’s only one person but actually when I was a member of a local LGBT group there was so much anger and such a lack of joy in the men who wanted to be women. The cross dressing man, though! We had such good fun taking about clothes and makeup and he was so happy in himself.

I’m posting to say thank you to Nauticant for such sterling work, to BezMills for the Fifer commentary, BoiledBeetle for the images and to all the erudite and articulate posters who have explained the proceedings for those of us who are not familiar with the law and also made me laugh so much too.

I am a lifelong avid reader and it’s been wonderful to see all the Pratchett, Christie, Sayers, Upson, Wodehouse, Galbraith fans. I feel there is a huge love for the English language on MN.

Actually, I am 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 Welsh. There was an Merched Cymru action at the Sennedd in Cardiff on Saturday and friends who attended were delighted to report back that one woman was there at her first event because of FWR on Mumsnet! I owe a huge debt of gratitude to all the posters on that board who have helped me articulate my GC viewpoint.
I can’t make jam, DW does the preserving in this home, I am an avid and passionate gardener, I cook and crochet.and I had a MN scarf!
Most of all of course, huge thanks to Sandie Peggie for her courage and determinatio, to her legal team who fighting the good fight.
Here’s to today where I will be pinned to my phone and iPad while eating scones and jam! I know I would get on really well with the Japanese ambassador! ☺️

Keenovay · 28/07/2025 08:45

Same re "Sad Times" @DrBlackbird. Makes me snort every time...

Boiledbeetle · 28/07/2025 08:45

pollyglot · 28/07/2025 08:23

Boiledbeetle · Today 08:17

pollyglot · Today 05:35
It's a dree sort of day here, just the weather for marmalade making: Lime and lemon (left) sweet orange and grapefruit.
Putting the finishing touches to my latest book...to the printers within a fortnight!
Still can't knit or crochet, though...

I'll have this one on my toast this morning please.

Good choice BB.
How did you sleep?
Oh, and the staff? i have a very nice crab apple jelly of a venerable vintage.

Edited

Wonderful night's sleep. I'll admit early on in the evening I could feel the pea in between the third and fourth mattresses but once I'd sent a gerbil to remove it I slept soundly.

I grew up on crab apple jelly 😍 the staff having now tried it are currently drawing straws for who gets to climb inside the jar to lick the remains from the bottom.

DrBlackbird · 28/07/2025 08:47

impossibletoday · 27/07/2025 22:17

A despicable smear campaign by association. And one that is not logical.

If you don’t want a man in your changing room but make some Trump supporting comment, you’re a bad person and it’s valid to disregard your views on men who claim they're women. If you don’t want a man in your changing room but express what could be construed as racist views, you’re a bad person and it’s valid to dismiss your views on men.

However, if you don’t want a man in your changing rooms, but support Labour or the Democrats, work to improve your community, foster children, save the whales, hug trees, and volunteer for human rights charities, you are still a bad person according to genderists and it’s valid to disregard your views on men in women’s changing rooms.

So how on earth is it possible for Sandie to win in the minds of brainwashed colleagues? And what possible valid commentary can this Lindsey person have to say about SP that actually matters?

Even if SP were racist, homophobic, transphobic (whatever that means), mean to colleagues, and occasionally made a medical error, none of that should mean that it’s right to force her to get undressed in front of a man.

It really is extraordinary - and an incredible testament to the most effective MRA campaign ever - that the perspective that TW (and it’s always TW and not TM) are brave, authentic selves that should be allowed to take over any female role and/or enter any female space without question. End of.

Convinces me that mass delusions are possible.

BamsWereAtIt · 28/07/2025 08:51

Optimistically I'm hoping Lindsey/Lindsay has peaked since writing those messages. A newly-peaked TERF on the stand would spice proceedings up a bit!

SidewaysOtter · 28/07/2025 08:58

I’m sorry, spiral scones? Mint aero flavouring? What fresh hell is this?!

#SadTimes

Peregrina · 28/07/2025 09:02

I am stating the obvious, but this Lindsey has spectacularly missed the point that it's any man that Sandie is objecting to. Decent men don't go into women's changing rooms.

She might not mind a man in the changing room, but if she is happy with a mixed changing room that's fine.

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 09:03

AtoC · 28/07/2025 06:24

That's interesting. Did they talk about what sort of arguments she would make?

Conceptually, yes, GI beliefs are not WORIADS but I wonder how you would specifically make that point?

Perhaps on the basis that GI beliefs provide a detriment to all women through allowing men to access their spaces and also removes women from being a sex class on our own and just becoming part of a wider "gender" class.

Secondly, the effects it has on gay and lesbian people in denying their same sex attraction.

But would this be enough in court to reach the bar of not being WORIADS?

In the Forstater case, the EAT said:

In our judgment, it is important that in applying Grainger V, Tribunals bear in mind that it is only those beliefs that would be an affront to Convention principles in a manner akin to that of pursuing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of forms, that should be capable of being not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Beliefs that are offensive, shocking or even disturbing to others, and which fall into the less grave forms of hate speech would not be excluded from the protection. However, the manifestation of such beliefs may, depending on circumstances, justifiably be restricted under Article 9(2) or Article 10(2) as the case may be.

Although I guess that you could make an argument for GI beliefs being akin to totalitarianism.

There's a transcript and I started doing quotes from it here but it's really too long and too um and ah y, they were obviously both thinking it through as they spoke, so do go and listen to it, subscribing if necessary! Yes, where Naomi came in was saying that GI belief rides roughshod over the rights of women, and that's why it shouldn't be WORIADS, but then they got into the weeds as they tried to imagine the facts of a case that would allow them to demonstrate that.

Igneococcus · 28/07/2025 09:05

SidewaysOtter · 28/07/2025 08:58

I’m sorry, spiral scones? Mint aero flavouring? What fresh hell is this?!

#SadTimes

Smitten Kitchen (still my favourite food blog) has a recipe for a layered (folded really) cinnamon scone that is really very nice. This computer won't let me get to the SK site weirdly and my phone won't let me paste the link either but it's worth googling it.
Spiral things should be made from yeasted doughs, like cinnamon buns.

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2025 09:07

Can't wait for our next installment of 'Dr Upton and the Wall of Sad'.

KittyWilkinson · 28/07/2025 09:12

I've been reading along all weekend. Thanks all, for the recipes and commentary. In the spirit of all things scone:
Gluten Tag

BezMills · 28/07/2025 09:13

I really appreciate the kind words about The Fifer. The Fifer is mainly inspired by a couple of my cousins, one male and one female, who have never moved out of the village where we all grew up together. So you can read as male or female, reader's choice!

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