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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 21:31

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 26 July 2025

OP posts:
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51
NebulousSupportPostcard · 28/07/2025 00:41

Largesso · 27/07/2025 23:25

Sandy‘s daughter quote tweeted a tweet which had those messages and said ‘tomorrow will be interesting’ so it would seem so.

Sorry @tribunalObserver I was the one convinced they could not be the same because there is definitely a Lindsey Nicoll ENP at Fife. From what Nicole Peggie posted it seems that 'Lindsay' in the FB group really is the same person. Still, if she hadn't met Beth, she didn't know what she was talking about?

The other witness has interesting stuff on their fb tl that would probably also cause FB Lindsay to faint, so I'm looking forward to how JR gets along with her.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 28/07/2025 00:43

Fortunately as I have premium account (out of gratitude to Mumsnet) and an ad blocker to make sure, I haven't seen any Ann Summers adverts.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/07/2025 00:54

On the nomination for the Nurse Award...

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44
NImumconfused · 28/07/2025 01:40

Completely gutted, I went to link the Protestant traybake thread, which had many fabulous recipes, and it's gone! Has Mumsnet had a cull of threads in classics??

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 04:24

NebulousSupportPostcard · 28/07/2025 00:41

Sorry @tribunalObserver I was the one convinced they could not be the same because there is definitely a Lindsey Nicoll ENP at Fife. From what Nicole Peggie posted it seems that 'Lindsay' in the FB group really is the same person. Still, if she hadn't met Beth, she didn't know what she was talking about?

The other witness has interesting stuff on their fb tl that would probably also cause FB Lindsay to faint, so I'm looking forward to how JR gets along with her.

What do you mean about the fb timeline? I won't link as that's likely a step too far, but on the tl of the Fiona Wishart who describes herself as an emergency nurse practitioner at NHS Fife, I see nothing more helpful than lost cat notices.

tribunalObserver · 28/07/2025 04:35

NebulousSupportPostcard · 28/07/2025 00:29

So Lindsey Nicoll is the nurse who goes by Lindsay on Facebook? That's very supicious. Does she change her name so she can speak more freely (when she isn't being holier than thou to others)?

Seems more likely that Lindsay for Lindsey is a typo by the Times journalist who transcribed from the bundle (and that all the other outlets copied the typo?)

NImumconfused · 28/07/2025 05:12

How bizarre! I have just scrolled through all of classics, I searched under Protestant and under traybakes and it didn't come up. Glad it's still there though, many good recipes (if you don't mind upping your diabetes risk - the sugar content is a bit hefty).

99bottlesofkombucha · 28/07/2025 05:16

CriticalCondition · 27/07/2025 20:33

I'd like to think the PP who posted the courgette pickle recipe a couple of days ago. Scoffing them out of the jar delicious!

Can it be reposted? <hopeful>

pollyglot · 28/07/2025 05:35

It's a dree sort of day here, just the weather for marmalade making: Lime and lemon (left) sweet orange and grapefruit.
Putting the finishing touches to my latest book...to the printers within a fortnight!

Still can't knit or crochet, though...

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #44
AtoC · 28/07/2025 06:24

tribunalObserver · 27/07/2025 19:29

PSA for anyone else who's recently subscribed to Michael Foran: this interview with Naomi Cunningham:

https://knowingius.org/p/live-with-naomi-cunningham

Highlights include her talking about how she'd love to argue a case that turned on GI beliefs not being WORIADS, and a "be careful what you wish for" discussion of what would happen if the GRA were repealed.
(I don't have share tokens, even after checking as suggested, perhaps because I was cautious enough to sign up only by the month so have only committed £5 so far!)

That's interesting. Did they talk about what sort of arguments she would make?

Conceptually, yes, GI beliefs are not WORIADS but I wonder how you would specifically make that point?

Perhaps on the basis that GI beliefs provide a detriment to all women through allowing men to access their spaces and also removes women from being a sex class on our own and just becoming part of a wider "gender" class.

Secondly, the effects it has on gay and lesbian people in denying their same sex attraction.

But would this be enough in court to reach the bar of not being WORIADS?

In the Forstater case, the EAT said:

In our judgment, it is important that in applying Grainger V, Tribunals bear in mind that it is only those beliefs that would be an affront to Convention principles in a manner akin to that of pursuing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of forms, that should be capable of being not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Beliefs that are offensive, shocking or even disturbing to others, and which fall into the less grave forms of hate speech would not be excluded from the protection. However, the manifestation of such beliefs may, depending on circumstances, justifiably be restricted under Article 9(2) or Article 10(2) as the case may be.

Although I guess that you could make an argument for GI beliefs being akin to totalitarianism.

Igneococcus · 28/07/2025 06:32

99bottlesofkombucha · 28/07/2025 05:16

Can it be reposted? <hopeful>

I posted a courgette pickle recipe, so I assume it is the one below, unless someone else posted a different one.
Only change I do is that I sprinkle the courgettes and onion with salt, let it sit for an hour and then drain them in a colander with a weight on top for a few hours/over night rather than put them into salted water.

https://www.browneyedbaker.com/zucchini-refrigerator-pickles-recipe/

Zesty Refrigerator Zucchini Pickles

These quick zucchini pickles are an easy way to use up all of that late-summer zucchini from the garden, no canning required!

https://www.browneyedbaker.com/zucchini-refrigerator-pickles-recipe/

GnomeDePlume · 28/07/2025 06:50

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 27/07/2025 21:22

This is mind-boggling. It doesn't sound as though the NHS solicitors were consulted at all.
Like you, I used to have our legal folks on speed dial. A quick phone call kept us right!

With people who are super-qualified I tend to see the thinking go one of two ways:

  • 'I am qualified in my subject so I will take advice from someone qualified in their subject'
  • 'I am the cleverest person so I don't need any advice from anyone on any subject'

The first thinking is from someone who is confident in their own field. They don't feel undermined if they need advice from others.

The second thinking is from someone who lacks confidence and is frightened that taking advice makes them look weak.

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 06:57

Harassedevictee · 27/07/2025 17:25

@HereticMyrtleLion Unfortunately when you have a stonewall captured hospital that is part of a wider stonewall captured organisation, NHS Scotland, it’s likely your legal advice will also come from captured organisations. Let’s face it, JR is going to argue DrU was OK to use the female changing room.

You only have to see the number of legal professionals saying the SC judgement is wrong to realise it’s hard to turn around the TWAW mantra. Even the EHRC thought a GRC made TW female under the EA2010.

I suspect, as has been alluded to by others, DrU is a high maintenance employee who would have no hesitation in lodging grievances and everyone was treading on egg shells. No witness from Fife has shown any thought that the female staff may object, no one consulted them, no one even told them.

I know I'm pages behind but I'll comment on this, I'll think they knew female staff would complain. They didn't consult to avoid complains.

Upton was always going to look for affirmation hes a woman with the right to use the women's

If they consulted the women would of course object, and management had no Plan B. They were more scared of Upton.

They seem to have tried silencing Sandie to avoid her drumming up support.

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 07:11

Igneococcus · 27/07/2025 22:05

A cafe close to me (well, easy cycling distance) makes treacle scones. I wish they'd be found in more cafes.

I love treacle scones. And do occasionally make my own.
The only place I currently know that sells them is a cafe out in the sticks.

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 07:22

N0Tfunny · 27/07/2025 23:37

On the last thread , several posters wondered if Dr Upton would be taking a case of his own to an Employment Tribunal. However I suspect he will be too busy dealing with the General Medical Council.

I understand that several complaints were raised with the GMC earlier this year but these are not being investigated until after this tribunal has given its findings.

I think there are a number of areas where many people might feel he has breached the standards required for a medical practitioner . These could include

Clinical competence and patient safety - he can’t tell the difference between biological men and women. This means, for example, that he could prescribe or dispense the wrong dose of a drug.

Consent - he has said he would go ahead and treat a patient even after they had specifically asked for a woman HCP / doctor.

Honestly and integrity - it appears he has tampered with evidence and made serious allegations about a colleague which he then admitted hadn’t happened.

He claims he had serious concerns about a colleague which could put patients at risk but he didn’t report these for months.

It could certainly be argued that his actions have undermined public faith in the profession or brought it into disrepute.

And this is before the ET has made any potential finding of sexual harassment against him.

That’s just off the top of my head, without going through the GMC Professional Standards or referring to the evidence he gave to the ET earlier this year.

Interesting fact - the Chair of the General Medical Council, Professor Dame Caroline MacEwen studied medicine at University of Dundee and is still Hon Professor of Surgery there.

I think the GMC will make mince meat of him.
Will we be able to be flys on the wall at there investigations too. That should have some entertainment value.

borntobequiet · 28/07/2025 07:30

NImumconfused · 27/07/2025 23:02

Ha! You've never been to Northern Ireland then, you'd be hard pushed to find a plain scone over here. Raspberry and white chocolate, pear and almond, cinnamon and apple, we put all sorts in them and they're generally about 3 times the size of the ones you get in England.

It has started to get a bit out of hand now though - the mint aero scones in our local farm shop cafe are a step too far!

Mmm - my father’s family is from NI but to be fair, I haven’t visited for decades. I know it’s changed beyond recognition. I just remember toast.

TheFifersSupportWren · 28/07/2025 07:35

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 07:22

I think the GMC will make mince meat of him.
Will we be able to be flys on the wall at there investigations too. That should have some entertainment value.

Unfortunately it seems as though the GMC are fully TWAW and so I suspect without a criminal conviction there will be no repercussions for DrU

Justabaker · 28/07/2025 07:37

Needspaceforlego · 28/07/2025 07:22

I think the GMC will make mince meat of him.
Will we be able to be flys on the wall at there investigations too. That should have some entertainment value.

TT was formed to cover the Medical Practitioner Tribunals of the Webberleys. The GMC - which prosecutes (may not be the right word) the doctors is wholly captured and fought us every step of the way.

We would do our best to cover if it comes to that. I'm not sure that 2nd or 3rd hand reports (Dr U said x in an ET) would be sufficient but I don't know.

Floradear · 28/07/2025 07:38

But, His registration has been changed. Did he not qualify as Theodore and was registered as such. At some date it was accepted that he had become a woman and documents and his history were changed.
I am unsure of the limits of jurisdiction between NHS, BMA, and GMC operate. But this sex change was accepted without conditions.
So why will these organisations investigate him now?

Brainworm · 28/07/2025 07:38

Toasterkettleairfryer · 27/07/2025 19:43

I am 2 threads behind, damn working nights,
i have 5 share tokens for michael foran for anyone who needs them

I’d love one, if there is still one going spare. Thank you!

BugsyMaroon · 28/07/2025 07:40

@Justabaker just to say thank you so much for everything you and your team do.

NebulousDog · 28/07/2025 07:41

@ThreeWordHarpy thank-you for the website link (to sciencejewelry1824). Are you pleased with the quality? The earrings look suitably quirky for a budding scientist (who will be getting A level results in a fortnight).

It’s the wrong time of year, but cheese and wild garlic scones are divine!

Thinking about today’s witnesses, at what point does an unsubstantiated testimony become slander?

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 28/07/2025 07:44

ErrolTheDragon · 27/07/2025 23:11

sounds like they’re not really scones, and need a different name as is the case with the Yorkshire Fat Rascal.

Although I'd be happy to use their preferred noun, I definitely don't think they should be using scone changing rooms.

FarriersGirl · 28/07/2025 07:48

youngerself · 27/07/2025 21:55

If BezMills is a man (?), does that mean Fifer is a man?
I really think Fifer is female. I imagine her being quite old and sat up a corner by the fire drinking porter and possibly with a clay pipe.
After reading so much Fifer, does anyone else find their internal monologue is in Fifer speak?

My internal image is an older female, with a headscarf and huddled up near a fireplace. I used to work with a fifer so the accent is easy to replicate [internally anyway]

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