NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

Had to go out, been catching up. Oh my goodness, what on earth was the point of MC's lecture on chromosomes?

From TT:
"MC The belief there's only 2 gender chromosomes is not correct. There are others than XX and XY that affect ppls sex characteristics. ALso mosaicism - where someone has chromosomes are mixed
J instructs quiet
MC mosaicism is v rare and when have 2 diff sets of chrormosomes. Most well known is post bone
MC marrow transplant so carry both. Sex chromosomes in addit to XX(F) and XY, can be XO where the other chromosome is blank. YO is not survivable. Also XXY amd XYY. These are all recognised syndromes
JR Are there names?
MC Xo is Turners. XYY is Klinefelters and XXY is?
JR Miss Cunningham knows and says is Swyers"

If the transcript is accurate and this is actually what was said, this information is incorrect. There is no such thing as 'gender chromosomes'. The sex chromosomes are X and Y. XYY is not Klinefelters, it is Jacobs syndrome and it would not at all be difficult to tell that the affected person was male. XXY is Klinefelters, this also only affects males and would be very easy to tell male in vast majority of cases, some men only find out as adults when they have fertility investigations. Not sure if there was a bit missed out that the Swyers comment was in response to but Swyers is not XXY as that is Klinefelters.

I am not a geneticist but am a doctor and we learned about the most common DSDs at medical school. Anyway it's not really relevant to this case!

Seems to me that DU couldn't possibly have been oblivious to the likelihood of somebody having an issue with him in the CR. It's not like there's been no publicity/controversy about TW in single sex spaces. I think he was waiting for something to happen and primed to react strongly.

Argh, playing catch up again. Went blackberry picking. Going to make an apple and blackberry crumble and custard. Won't be homemade custard though, birds custard will have to do.

I was giving her the benefit of the doubt- loads of barristers buy into their own brilliance in the year or two after taking silk, especially when you're against a junior. But the last couple of days have been absolutely abysmal.

There is a nasty reference to NC in there (see beneath the comment from JAC) from his account. I don't understand it. It looks offensive and I'm not going to repeat it.

Remember, in NHSF's dreamworld, this was all going to happen in secret.

It's a good thing Sandie raised it as she did because imagine if she'd had to rely entirely on the honest and reliable people in the chain of command above her.

Just looked at TT again and the tweets with the chromosome exchange still appear in the thread but you can't click on to them to look at the quotes etc. Wondering if they've been deleted?

Sandie Peggie

Reckon there's still time for a Fife public statement?

Phew (sort of caught up).

After the February hearings (and the news that people had “looked” at Upton’s phone) I was expecting that there would have been a chain of emails to/from the BMA person (who might have been a friend, rather than dealing with this in the office since it was over Xmas), with various iterations of the “events”/issues.

Since none of that sort of thing has been mentioned, presumably Upton didn’t volunteer personal emails/call logs or there was nothing relevant?

At the end of the day, I am still struggling to understand why a nurse was suspended and was investigated for 18 months when, in any sensible organisation, both members of staff would have a meeting with HR and rotas would be fixed until new changing arrangements could be made.

I’ll sign off for the weekend in the hope that Nauticant gets a break

Had to go out, been catching up. Oh my goodness, what on earth was the point of MC's lecture on chromosomes?

That sex isn't binary because there are sort of other sexes which aren't really other sexes, and because there aren't 2 clear categories into which 2 different types of human beings can be placed, with certainty, then, in a context of such uncertainty, saying that Upton is in one of the categories, but is claiming to be part of the other when he's not, are the words of a transphobe.

Don't asked me to explain in detail. It simply doesn't make sense.

I don't even get it. But if I were NC, I'd be reading it with a glass of champagne. It's plain that whatever the outcome of the case, she's already won.

😂

I've been picking some terrific blackberries over the past week. It's a great year for them.

Just guffawing the DAVRO on here.

having been in many different work places in my lifetime i have seen more sensitive and shall i say mild women who have been harassed because they were a good target.I have been a union rep.

I am a forthright assertive sort. Who has never been successfully harassed simply because this type of men would not take the risk of persisting.

i had several occasions when i was younger, where i have said if you do not fuck off right now i will have, your guts for garters.

how unprofessional of me…..

i

Pluvia · Interesting. Do you think other trusts watching will be silently concluding that employing trans people may be expensive?

My info on this in anecdotal (from my former profession/employer) and fairly direct from grown Ss&Ds in the work force.

DS2 (27) changed jobs 2 years ago. Among other things he was asked to disclose all his social media accounts and told that these would be reviewed. Any accounts found to have been subsequently controlled and not disclosed would be gross misconduct, immediate dismissal. He's always been very restrained on social media so not a problem for him. Among his peers, this is common for anyone looking to work in the private sector.
Feedback from professional employer. They have developed various criteria to swerve any candidates invested in identity politics of any description. Big employers use 3rd party firms to screen. Looking for the digital equivalent of blue hair, nose rings, visible tattoos, grievance hunting gerbils.

It's all not explicit but desired outcomes are obvious.

One of my biggest criticisms of all DEI is that it would drive merit based hiring decisions underground. So after a brief period of meritocracy ruling, it will all be wink and nod stuff again.

Just goes to show their prejudice, that Linsey Watson can think this is a put up job to cause trans people grief, rather than a busy nurse trying to change in peace.

Yes, they even thought they could cover up the cover up by having a not very hard look at DU's notes in May.

I'll have Option No 6 please and swallow it whole.

"Less than 1% of people have a DSD, which is a variation in development along either the male or female pathway. These sometimes require further markers to identify but once those markers are taken, it'll be clear which DSD and therefore which sex the person is. However, if we can exploit these people and their conditions, and spread the offensive falsehood that, in these rare cases, a person is not a true man or woman, it's COCKS OUT IN THE LADIES' ROOM FOR ALL, FELLAS!" 🍾🥂

That's the absolute crunch of the issue. Why this case is so so important.

@hoolit please report your own post for deletion, no reason to believe Upton is like that.

Have been watching this quietly from afar for ages and mightily thank those of you who are keeping this thread going. I am defo in the Team SP camp. But, I may have missed something which I'm curious about given the fast-moving content.

What is the employment status of both SP and DU at this time? Are they both staying home on full pay for the duration?

Very good point. And thank goodness for transparency, even if Guardian not reporting it and BBC not giving accurate representation

Blackberries are nowhere near ready down my way , despite the stonking amounts of sunshine.

My gooseberries OTOH have gone absolutely crazy. Billions of them, and so sweet. Why do people think of gooseberries as sharp?