NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

I found this absolute gem of a reaction, from Lynsey Watson, the transpolicewoman who got sacked, on X:

The TERFs making hay over Naomi Cunningham insulting judge Kemp after she was asked by the judge, if she wished to reflect on her aggressive, oppressive misgendering of Dr Upton. Basically told the judge to GFY. We think, this was the moment Cunningham lost this case- which the judge and everyone else knows has always been Naomi Cunningham’s case and that Sandie Peggie has just been a useful idiot for Cunningham to bring another case to tribunal Remember, Cunningham runs the super-funded anti-trans hate-group ‘Sex Matters’. Like the Newman case, all of these cases were ‘engineered’ long in advance to ‘create complaints’ and none of them arose organically. Cunningham is so obsessed and desperate she is working for free in case that would reduce trans rights and dignity.

https://x.com/SEENpoliceUK/status/1948650604647096788

Let's just say that it's not going especially well in the comments.

Jellycatspyjamas · Today 16:01
Wait until he left - which I’m assuming is what she did do after their conversation. Continuing to labour how unhappy she was that he was there wouldn’t hasten his leaving.
The record doesn’t say she asked if he could leave because she wanted to attend to her bleeding, whereby any reasonable person would have left, she objected on the grounds of his sex and in the current climate that was always going to result in push back.
It’s possible to support SP and her action - she’s been treated appallingly - while also recognising that her approach to him wasn’t great.
........................................................

But why is the onus on SP to leave? She was mid shift, bleeding with patients in A&E and DU was changed and ready to leave (from DUs evidence in Feb). Why can't a doctor be expected to show a bit of compassion and say "well we can't resolve this now" and just leave and go home?

I have no hope of keeping up with those who have been following proceedings daily so these questions may already have been asked and answered.

1. Were the February court days transcribed by a stenographer as well as these dates?
2. If yes and DU is proven to have falsified evidence or lied in court, would the tribunal transcripts be submissible as evidence for a GMC investigation into DU’s professional conduct?

From the last thread

ItisntOver · Today 16:05
I can tell you how it closes. You’ll see Denton gets a contribution.
Upton told the tribunal that, on two occasions before the Christmas Eve incident, Peggie had left the changing room when Upton entered it and had stood outside. Giving evidence in February, Peggie said that she was “embarrassed” during the third incident because she was menstruating, and she insisted that she was not drawing comparisons with a convicted rapist when she compared the situation to a “biological man in a women’s prison.”
Peggie has also begun legal action against her trade union, the Royal College of Nursing, for failing to support her after her suspension. A spokesperson for the union said, “We have responded to the claim, and we deny all the allegations from Ms Peggie.”
Elouisa Crichton, a partner at the Glasgow office of the international law firm Dentons, said, “Sandie Pegg’s claim against NHS Fife is interesting because the events took place pre-FWS [the Supreme Court judgment in the case For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers], but the litigation is taking place now with the benefit of the Supreme Court judgment. As such, we are looking at those past events through a new lens, and that could be important.
“There are various rights at play here, so FWS alone will not determine the outcome. The employment tribunal will need to consider the specific facts, acts of both parties, and the rights of the other employees. But it will certainly loom large over this hearing, and in terms of timing, this case has come right at the point when the public are focused on this topic.”
The tribunal hearings are expected to finish on 28 July, with judgment to come at a later date.

Well, Denton's can fuck right off for a start. They were instrumental in all this bollocks starting with their "document".

Even without FWS judgement, NHSF were not adhering to the 1992 regs.

Also DU doesn't have a GRC so their point is moot.

You would expect a partner in a law firm to know these things.

This is what I would be thinking now, with all the changes to his notes - that he was beefing it up to make sure she got into trouble.

'...any half decent person...'

Indeed. If I, a woman (the old fashioned cunty kind), was approached by another woman, clearly having an issue, in the women's changing room and was asked if I would please leave her to it so she could deal with her problem - I'd respond by saying something along the lines of 'oh god, yeah, of course', and leave. I'd possibly add a 'is there anything I can do to help?' but in the face of a refusal of offered help, I would leave as requested. I wouldn't stand there arguing the toss over my right to be there. Because that would make me a dick.

Ha! Want to put money on that, Lynsey? 😁

I think that if an employer puts and employee in an impossible situation, the employer is entirely responsible.

I very much doubt she's working for free, nor would anyone want her to.

As far as I’m aware SP’s legal team are paying for a stenographer.

I don’t know if this would be admissible. It might depend on who “owns” the court transcript as a result.

The GMC might be able to call for the transcript but notoriously they cost thousands for crown court, so it would depend on whether they would have to pay. It would not be SP’s team who being proceedings.

If when NHS Fife lose they may choose to take proceedings because of his actions.

Oh my goodness, there’s deluded and then there’s this whole world of paranoia, falsehoods and pretend victimhood. Pathetic!

I’m always amazed at how the TRAs see things

The stenographer owns the copyright; typically you have to pay for a copy, but I don't think there's any restriction on to whom they're sold.

Adding my admiration for Bez. I really hope that when this is all over and done with there is a screenplay done (I think there was for LGBA vs Mermaids?). I would definitely chip into a crowdfunder for a screenplay including Fifer's comments!

The only snag IMO is that she didn’t clearly say - please leave now. But I took her mention of problems with men and prisons as trying to reason with DU. I think she assumed that logic and an appeal to decency would get DU to see sense… she had no idea that she was about to trigger a witch hunt because simply saying “you’re a man” is not hate speech to most fair minded people. Unfortunately NHS Fife seems to be short of fair minded people…

Yes I was thinking about that! His commentary should def be in the script.

In an alternative universe, where SP didn't say anything, she is still standing around in corridors trying to find somewhere to get changed, and NHS Fife are claiming they can't possibly sort out the changing room situation because the SC ruling isn't clear.

Either that, or the entire workforce is in the changing room, unable to leave for fear of committing a microaggression.

There was no stenographer in February. SP's legal team paid for a transcript of the court audio record of the February proceedings which would have cost several thousand. They shared short excerpts with JR during the hearing this week. They are under no obligation to provide the rest.

OMG. It’s even worse than we thought!

Foran explains;

PD sent an unpopulated form to BU who filled it out and he witnesses from a remote link her filling out out.

But NHS Fife board attached it to his witness statement in order to SUGGEST HE HAD compiled it not DU.

Who do you mean by "employee" here please?

There's also the fact that many autogynephiles have a menstruation fetish. That would make me even less inclined to discuss anything menstruation related with them, if I still menstruated. Apologies if anyone is eating their tea.

Where have I said she should leave, and where have I said he shouldn’t show compassion - human decency says you’d leave someone to clean themselves up in those circumstances, which I’ve said repeatedly.

I wouldn’t take a blind bit of notice what the disgraced Lyndsey Watson says 🤯🤯🤯🤯

Sandie was put in an impossible situation of having to complain several times and no SS CR provided, but it's Upton's fault as well as Fife's. They all know he's male.