NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

Also, if he was so distressed and upset and shaken by the interaction, as he claimed minutes later while sobbing into Dr. pitts arms, surely he would have wanted to remove himself as soon as possible. Not stand there arguing the toss, repeatedly claiming that he had a right to be there.

Assertively standing his ground while alone with the terrifying nurse. Shaking and sobbing minutes later with Dr Pitt.

Yeah right

i am usually a lurker on these threads but have recently subscribed to Michael Foran’s excellent Knowing Ius Substack and as a result have 5 x 1free months to give away (you can view all his more or less daily thoughts of the tribunal case).

if you would like one please DM me, if you have iCloud you can create a ‘hide my email’ so you’re not giving out your email address to a stranger online.

@Jellycatspyjamasin the last thread you mentioned that SP saying others weren’t happy might then have created a hostile work environment for DU that DU couldn’t do anything about - but surely DU could have remedied this “hostile environment” quite easily by not using the female changing room? Yes, the employer OKed it (despite having no policy) but they didn’t say “DU you must use the female changing room”, it was DU’s choice to do so. Plus DU acknowledged that some people might be upset by this when in the stand in Feb so arguably it was DU that created the hostile working environment by using it anyway?

I didn't even get the money reference. What a prick. Still, she's obviously wound him up something awful. Even our resident TRAs seem to have gone quiet.

It's still rather unpleasant, though.

And was also given info about gender neutral facilities, though I can't remember who by.

Agree.
But then, what do you expect from a TiM?

His wedding photo is of 6 foot+ male with beard. Pretty sure he knows he went through male puberty.

@Emptyandsad

Totally agree. The only magic that can conjure up Upton’s desire to be a woman is what he says about himself, & the words & actions he can attempt to compel in others, most importantly for him from women.

A man twirling in front of his mirror telling himself he’s a woman is merely that. A man being referred to as she/her & occupying women only spaces is, in his head, validated in his desires.

Sandie committed the ultimate crime against him, popping the bubble of compliance that allowed him to live out his fantasy at work. His carefully crafted entry, as he would have seen it, into womanhood, was damaged by Sandie’s refusal to lie & play the game.

Sandie was like Toto the dog in The Wizard of Oz, pulling back the curtain to reveal a man who wasn’t who he claimed to be.

Monday's witnesses are:

• Lindsey Nicoll, emergency nurse practitioner
• Fiona Wishart, emergency nurse practitioner

And this was the Judge's qu's to DU about other staff witnesses, extract from final session on 13/02/25

J: You mentioned a Sarah Richardson, her role?
DU: {missed} -
J Q?
DU: She has rotated out.
J We have heard a Rhianna mentioned, do you know surname?
DU: Not sure [has a guess]
J Her role?
DU: I think healthcare assistant.
J: Still in role?
DU Not sure, might be maternitiy leave
J: Q re another person?
DU: Not sure how to spell the name, would have to look up, don't think she's still at the hospital.
J: A Fiona mentioned?
DU: Yes, think she's still at the hospital
J: So if necessary we could ask a couple of people what you were wearing at various point?
DU Yes
J: How long on 24/12 between you going in, and going to the toilet?
DU: About 5 minutes?
J: And they were also changing into civilian clothes?
DU I imagine so but not looking
J: And F still there when you came out?
DU: Yes
J: [page ref] your iv with AG: you say you can't remember which order people left, but that one left before you went in and the other while you were in the toilet? Did you say goodbye or anything
DU Maybe

...

J: When you left, did you have outerwear - jacket or something?
DU: I assume so, but can't say for certain
J: This note - I think you said written on the spot, in the car immediately. What time?
DU: 12.30-1?
J and how long to drive home
DU: usually c 50 minutes
J: This email is dated 3.17 am, how long did it take you to prepare?
DU: Don't know
J: Can you recall process of composing?
DU: Think I would have typed out in word or an email, referring to the phone notes to help my recollection

Maybe she could have a word with Kate Searle and Isla Bumba- this woman is clearly an expert.

JR Did u know she held GC views MC Yes, I'd heard her articulate them in non-clin areas

Tribunal Tweets

@tribunaltweets
·
4h

MC I'd heard her say it's not poss to change sex JR When met DU? MC At induction teaching session as a F2 dr

After hearing the testimony from Dr Maggie Currer, Sandie Peggie has just risen in my estimation. Having the guts to express your convictions in an NHS teaching session is exceptional. How many of us have sat and sulked through EDI training too scared to express an opinion in case it backfires?

My incredulous reminder to myself that IB’s first degree was in immunology. An area in which there are well-established sex differences in immunological responses to external and self-antigens. And clear distinctions in innate and adaptive scale and trajectory of immune responses.

I’m watching Pitch Perfect before rehoming the DVD. It’s full of the kind of ‘mannered’ women Upton models himself on. A bit ‘mean girl’. It’s not a particularly current style in the UK I don’t think, that highly controlled image. You have to go a long way back to see women performing being ladylike here, imo.

Rather Mrs Slocombe, now I think of it.

@NotAGentleReminder First trying to let colleagues off the hook for the whole not knowing what sex they are nonsense. Second muddying the waters on whether Upton was a man or not. Naomi needs to go back to his GMC registration to confirm he is.

Not sure whether she needs to get into the dont most of these dsds show up well before age 27....

Sorry that was off piste, just something I noticed watching TV.

Been on bbc reporting Scotland. IT guys both on film coming out

@Angelabdc It doesnt say that. There are 2 separate comments there - first Sandie only expressed comments in non clinical spaces (so didnt affect patients, if he had she'd be in trouble for not reporting it). Second she (dr) met Upton when in training session.

BBC Reporting Scotland News have just presented a fairly balanced summary of the IT issues. Also shows the two IT folk. Can be accessed on iPlayer if anyone is feeling nosey at about 18 mins.
Trumpness will dominate the non regional news.

I shared toilets with a trans identified male at work, about 20 years ago. I felt a bit sorry for him as all the men gave him a really hard time, and I tried to be nice to him. I was more naive then. Anyway, one day me and my friend were in the toilets and while we were washing our hands he tried to strike up a girly chat with us. I think it was summer. His chat was along the lines of "don't you just love shaving your legs, and how silky and smooth they feel afterwards" and we both looked at each other and said we find it an absolute pain in the arse tbh, and we much prefer winter when you don't have to get your legs out, or if you do they're in 40 denier min. tights. He looked completely baffled by our responses, it obvs. wasn't what he expected to hear at all - didn't fit with his conception of what it's like to be a woman. This was someone who wore 4" black patent stilettos and fishnets to the office.

There have been over 400 watching live on the recent livestreams with the case updates. Tonight’s was fabulous!

“at this point Sandie’s team might be able to win on Jane Russell’s own submissions!”

I obviously have no evidence to support what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyway.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least that Upton either
A) knew he was a mediocre(crap) doctor and would never particularly shine.
B) didn't want to be a doctor (well not in a hospital having to work really hard unsociable hours dealing with all sorts of rif raf)

So he knew trans is a hot topic, not many trans medics around. Knows how trans are practically untouchable especially in NHS.
Sets the scene in a new place of work, writes and waits and writes and waits for an opportunity to make some discrimination/transphobia claim and bam, appears Sandie. (At what point of his career did he stop being bearded Teddy, the hockey player again and become Beth?)

He gets loads of publicity, maybe doesn't need a payout, but becomes some big trans celebrity in the medical world and fast tracked to work with Webberley or some other loon as an expert on genderbollocks.

Of course I have just dreamt that up. But as they say, reality is often stranger than fiction.

J: When you left, did you have outerwear - jacket or something?
DU: I assume so, but can't say for certain
J: This note - I think you said written on the spot, in the car immediately. What time?
DU: 12.30-1?
J and how long to drive home
DU: usually c 50 minutes
J: This email is dated 3.17 am, how long did it take you to prepare?
DU: Don't know
J: Can you recall process of composing?
DU: Think I would have typed out in word or an email, referring to the phone notes to help my recollection

Hang on its a couple of hours at most after the event when he gets home and starts typing about what happened. The thing that was so awful he ran round a and e looking for someone to cry to and relay what happened to, had to be walked to his car... But needs to check his notes to help him remember?

Fuck me he'd be a danger to patients with that bad a memory

I have, too so if you're oversubscribed feel free to contact me and I'll send on my subscriptions.

His analysis is absolutely riveting. How he manages to capture so much detail and then talk about it so articulately is just amazing. He must be shattered after this week.

Is anyone a D L Sayers fan? I would love a one line description of each witness as in ‘Busman’s Honeymoon’:

’Then, the prisoner himself, witness in his own defence, a very bad witness indeed, sullen and impudent by turns’.